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  #1   IP: 108.12.226.95
Old 11-14-2020, 04:37 PM
tom61 tom61 is offline
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fuel problem, maybe

Hi All:

I had a trouble-free summer with my A4, until I went to winterize it on the hard today. It's been idle for maybe 6 weeks. It turns over but never catches. I thought I couldn't detect a spark, and had a new coil handy, so I replaced it and confirmed its supply voltage. When I take a spark plug out I can see a spark (though it looks a little wimpy to me).

Since it was cranking for a while, I would expect to see it wet or at least fuel-smelly when I take off the little screen on the carburetor air intake. Shouldn't I? It's pretty dry.

This is in a 1960 Pearson Triton, and the fuel filter and pump are pretty hard to see and reach. I confirmed that the fuel filter is full of fuel by loosening the screw under the cup and getting it all over my hand, something I could do by touch instead of sight. My uneducated guess is there's something wrong with the fuel pump. The fuel pump is disc shaped, so I imagine that means it's a diaphragm. It's the older engine, and is probably original with the boat. Can people suggest the easiest way to confirm a problem with the fuel pump?

An alternate explanation is that it was an electric problem, but I was dumb and cranked it too long and now there's water in the cylinders so it can't catch even with a new coil. Would that have the same symptoms? I squirted WD-40 in the aft cylinder, but not sure how to proceed here if that was the problem.

Thank you all.
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Old 11-14-2020, 05:23 PM
jcwright jcwright is offline
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Tom,

My first concern would be to deal with the water in the cylinders before that causes more serious problems. Below is a note from Don Moyer that may be helpful.

Best regards,

Jack.

Don's post on water intrusion:

Here is an excerpt from a recent tech note we prepared for cleaning water out of an engine after it enters the engine from the exhaust system. The most important part of the whole procedure is to get to the point where you can restart the engine and warm it up, which of course begs the question of why your engine wouldn't start in the first place. I'll add a short list of things to check in this regard at the end of this message.

WHAT TO DO IF WATER IS DISCOVERED IN THE CYLINDERS (OR RUNNING OUT OF THE INTAKE THROAT OF THE CARBURETOR):

1) If water is discovered in combustion chambers, perform the following precautionary steps as soon as possible:

a. Close the raw water thru-hull valve.

b. Remove all spark plugs and squirt lots (5 or 6 squirts) of Marvel Mystery Oil (MMO) in each cylinder to prevent pistons from seizing. Try to aim the MMO away from the manifold side of the engine, toward the cylinders.

c. Turn the engine over with the starter until most of the evidence of water is gone from the combustion chambers.

d. If water was seen to run out of the intake throat of the carburetor, remove the main passage plug (the plug that you would remove to remove the main jet), and allow all the fuel and water to run out of the carburetor.

2) Dry (or replace) the spark plugs, and try to start the engine. If the engine starts, open the raw water through-hull.

3) If the engine starts and runs satisfactorily, check for water in the crankcase. If water is present, change the oil at least three times. Run the engine just long enough between changes to mix up the water and oil to maximize the amount of water that comes out with each oil change.

QUICK CHECKS FOR NON-STARTING ENGINES:

1) Close raw water through hull as soon as it is determined that the engine is not starting within the normal time.

2) Be sure the choke is closed completely. If an engine chronically starts hard, but then runs OK after it starts, the hard starting is almost certainly caused by the choke not closing completely.

3) Remove the flame arrestor and check for the presence of raw fuel. If the choke is closed completely, there should be raw fuel puddled in the bottom of the intake throat within 15 to 20 seconds of cranking (3 or 4 five-second attempts). If the carburetor intake throat is "bone dry", the reason for the non-starting is either a problem in the fuel supply that prevents the fuel from getting to the carburetor or some problem within the carburetor that prevents the fuel from getting through the carburetor (most likely a blocked main jet).

4) Remove the secondary lead from the center of the distributor cap and hold it approximately 1/4" from the cylinder head while someone cranks the starter. You should see a good arc between the end of the coil lead and the head that can be stretched to 1/2" or even 3/4". If you see no spark, the reason for non-starting is clearly within the ignition system, most likely a breakdown within the primary ignition circuit.

5) With all spark plugs removed, hold your thumb over each spark plug hole sequentially to check compression, as someone cranks the engine for a second or two with the starter. An Atomic 4 will usually start if any two
cylinders have normal compression as indicated below.

a. Compression sufficient to force past your thumb no matter how hard you press it against the plug hole would confirm normal compression of approximately 85 psi or above.

b. If you can hold your thumb against the compression, but not easily, a compression value of approximately 40 to 50 psi would be indicated, and starting could be problematic.

c. If you feel virtually no compression on any cylinder, the problem is likely a stuck valve.

Best regards,

Don
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Old 11-14-2020, 07:17 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Follow Don's directions.
Take the spark plugs out, lay a rag on top of the head, and then turn the engine with the starter. This will push some of the water out. Then perhaps repeat.
You need to do this pronto.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-14-2020, 09:39 PM
tom61 tom61 is offline
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Thanks for this. But how would I "discover water in the chambers"? What's "evidence of water"? I can't see into them and I can only barely peek into the air intake of the carburetor. Right now I'm just guessing that's part of the problem, but I have no idea, really.

Doesn't sound like the MMO can hurt, but can other people see into their cylinders? Is an endoscope part of one's tool kit?
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Old 11-14-2020, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom61 View Post
how would I "discover water in the chambers"? What's "evidence of water"?
One way is water droplets on the spark plugs. Another is mocha colored oil on the dipstick if the water found a way from the combustion chamber into the crankcase.

About 3 years ago a couple of us were helping a new A4 owner with his running/overheating problems. We had a manifold breach following an acid flush that sent water into the cylinders. Cranking the engine with the starter, spark plugs removed, shot water all the way to the cabin top like a geyser.
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Old 11-15-2020, 12:37 AM
tom61 tom61 is offline
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Thank you that makes sense. I'll go back and check for this.

But I think we've gotten away from what I really need: I can't start the engine and need suggestions about how to diagnose inaccessible fuel components. If the carburetor intake seems dry and un-smelly after cranking, what's my best first move? Is there an easy way to confirm the pump works and I should look to the carburetor, or vice versa?

If the pump is failing, does gas get through, just not at the right pressure? Or does nothing get through?

If a jet is clogged in the carburetor, isn't there a second way for gas to get through? Wouldn't that mean running rough or stalling, but not failing to start?

What can I guess from what I see? Is there something else I should be looking for? Do I know something because it was working fine recently?

Thanks for any suggestions like these.
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Old 11-15-2020, 02:50 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom61 View Post
What can I guess from what I see? Is there something else I should be looking for? Do I know something because it was working fine recently?
Thanks for any suggestions like these.
Well, OK. Here's one. Check to be sure the choke is closing all the way.
As many have mentioned, if there water in the cylinders, as you stated in post #1, that needs be dealt with first.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 11-15-2020, 08:53 AM
scratchee scratchee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom61 View Post
...cranked it too long and now there's water in the cylinders so it can't catch even with a new coil.
I think you may have confused some people with this line. It now sounds like you presume there is water in the cylinders because of the cranking time, but you haven't actually seen any signs of water.

EDIT -- OK, now I see that you were simply saying that the water was a possible scenario.

After you get the potential water sorted out, you could try disconnecting the fuel line from the carb, and replacing it with a temporary hose leading to an elevated external fuel tank/can/container. The engine should run by gravity feed alone. If it runs this way, it would suggest a problem with the pump or associated plumbing.

Last edited by scratchee; 11-15-2020 at 08:55 AM.
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  #9   IP: 47.54.111.226
Old 11-15-2020, 10:32 AM
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Not the first, won't be the last.

Hi,
What you need to do is remove and clean out the carb. What happens, every year, is that some boats are lifted in slings and are nose down on the lift. This allows what would otherwise be not probable to happen...water coming back into the engine from the exhaust. Full keel boats are susceptible.

Also consider that any water that came back also went in around the valves...all of them. So you need to lubricate them. It does't take much to stick valves.

Now, how do I know this? Because in the past 13 years I've had to haul the head off 4 engines and free up valves and clean up carbs that were backwashed with salt water. The carbs were done if left until spring.

So the plan of attack is clean up the carb first, spray some lubricant in the spark plug holes and start the engine. If it starts then hook up your raw water intake to a bucket of water and run the engine for about 20 minutes. DO NOT use a hose directly feeding the pump with city pressure, use a bucket and the pump draws what it needs. After that, the valves should be pretty clean, however, residue could still be there. Now winterize the engine with antifreeze...NOW, you take the carb off again and lay it to the side. Place a small cup under the manifold where the carb bolts on. Now remove the plugs and pour some oil in the spark plug holes. Turn the engine over and you will note that oil will even be pushed out into that cup you put under the manifold...it also lubricated your valves very well.

Put the carb in a plastic bag and put it back on in spring...or you can put it on now. In spring on start up it will smoke like the dickens for about 5 minutes and then run good.

Anything short of that is a guessing game and leads to severely seized valves in spring.

EDIT: Tom, you need to do a compression check. If that water came in 6 weeks ago those valves will likely be seized already...so a compression test is in order. No compression the engine can't even draw in gas fumes.

Sorry to be the bearer of this news but there it is. I have the people around me trained up to start their boats as soon as they are re-positioned in their cradles for winter...then is the time to find back wash issues, whether diesel engine or gas engine. I fire up my engine as soon as she's out just to ensure I don't have an issue. Just this spring I dealt with an engine that was left until spring prior to trying to start it...waiting on parts, head gasket and carb, was the longest part of the fix because we couldn't get one fast due to the Covid snail mail issues. That boat was down from running. The owner tried to start it in the fall and figured he'd sort it all out later...head gasket and carb later.
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Last edited by Mo; 11-15-2020 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 11-15-2020, 06:16 PM
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Thanks all.

Thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions. I regret suggesting the thing about the water, since it sort of got things off track. (It was just a possible scenario in my fever dream and I just wanted someone to tell me yes or no it would have this symptom.) I've checked and the oil looks fine and there is nothing that looks like water droplets on the sparkplugs. But I'll oil the cylinders generously before it goes to bed, for sure. And the six weeks was between the request and the haul, so it was in the water, just idle. I was winterizing it the day after it was on the hard, but it wouldn't start. But thanks for the advice about not waiting, I'd rather learn from other people's mistakes.

Removed carburetor, and it was worth doing, but it wasn't dirty and had gas in it so I guess fuel is getting through. I'll try the thumb compression check and then go back to thinking about electrical problems.
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Old 11-15-2020, 06:58 PM
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Tom, it is very common not to notice gas if you don't have compression. Most people that don't see gas wet on their plugs think it must be a fuel delivery issue. The carbs on these boats are an updraft...they need compression to suck the gas up from the carb...no compression no gas. I learned that one when I first got my boat 13 years ago and I spent days sorting out a fuel delivery problem that was a compression issue in the end. My engine ran great for 13 years after I got through my first 2 week crash course on Atomic 4's. I thought it would last a year or so so I bought another engine and had it waiting in the wings....it was only a little over a month ago I had to put the other engine in it. As for keeping sharp, I usually work or advise on 4 or 5 engines in the local marinas each year. That tipping the boat forward and having exhaust water run forward into the engine is real, but it usually happens when lifted with a crane and not in all circumstances. Once the tilt does happen the water ran forward...even if they lower the boat back in the water and move the straps to level it. Something to keep in the back of your mind.
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Old 11-16-2020, 11:49 AM
tom61 tom61 is offline
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all seems well, maybe don't work on Friday 13?

Hi All:

It's all still a little mysterious, but removing and cleaning the carburetor was educational and seemed helpful, even though it didn't seem very dirty to me. The engine has started happily and I've successfully managed to pump a couple of gallons of antifreeze through it, and then shut it down and fogged the cylinders and sucked out the crankcase oil (which did not appear to have any water in it).

And I tried the thumb compression test, too, and it nearly took off my thumb, so I feel better about the engine in many ways, even if the original problem remains mysterious to me. Maybe there was a little clog that I jostled free? Maybe I shouldn't have been doing any of this on Friday the 13th? Who knows, but thanks all nonetheless.
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