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View Poll Results: Do you adhere to ABYC Standards when working on your boat?
Yes, always 7 12.28%
Sometimes 40 70.18%
Never 2 3.51%
Don't know, don't care 7 12.28%
I will after my insurance co. denies a claim because I didn't 3 5.26%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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  #51   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 07-29-2011, 12:05 PM
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Question battery terminal fuses

So, since I've moved my batteries & I am re-wiring, one of the things I think that ABYC wants is some sort of fusing at the battery level. This seems to make sense if there was some sort of system wide failure and might keep the batteries from melting the boat..I think.


Are there other "major" types of fusing setups I should consider in the boat? I have a 100 AMP breaker which separates the DC distribution panel from the main battery switch, but there is no other 'fusing' in the boat for large components (battery, starter, alternator, etc..)

As a start, I was considering one of these on top of my two battery (+) posts.

link here, pic below:
http://bluesea.com/category/5/21/pro...e/overview/378

#1 - What say ye?? (of course I seek the advice of those with similar electrical/engine set ups)
#2 - What amperage is sufficient to accommodate the loads imposed by the A-4 when starting (I think someone here calculated 160 amps), & therefore, what size should the fuse be? This particular fitting can handle up to a 300 amp fuse.
#3 - Is all of this necessary? I guess I worry more about dropping a tool and shorting out the battery (which I also assume would blow the fuse & maybe keep me from blowing up other systems down the line?)
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Last edited by sastanley; 07-29-2011 at 12:09 PM.
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  #52   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 07-29-2011, 07:27 PM
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Hi Shawn, long time no talk.

If your batteries run to a battery switch before they run anywhere else, you do not need a battery fuse. After the battery switch, a distribution panel provides for individual circuit fuses (or breakers).

Fuses are selected at 1.4 times the nominal current. For example, if you have a 30 amp load on the alternator, a 1.4 x 30 = 42 (40) amp fuse would be used.

There is an exception. Starter motors are not normally fused. The current draw is high and proper, high-ampacity fuses are expensive. Instantaneous current are very high. Fuses incorporated into battery terminal connectors are usually crap.

Steve

Last edited by High Hopes; 07-29-2011 at 07:28 PM. Reason: typo
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  #53   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 07-29-2011, 07:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by High Hopes View Post
Fuses are selected at 1.4 times the nominal current. For example, if you have a 30 amp load on the alternator, a 1.4 x 30 = 42 (40) amp fuse would be used.
I don't know if ABYC requires it but in the trade the wire gauge must be suitable for the higher amperage overcurrent protection.

Example:
Circuit draws 16 amps, #12 wire is suitable (20A rating). However, if fused at 1.4 times 16 amps (= 22.4 amps) the wire now needs to be #10 (30A rating) because of the bigger fuse (or breaker). We run into this all the time on motor circuits.
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  #54   IP: 74.96.34.159
Old 07-29-2011, 11:46 PM
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Steve & Neil, nice to chat with both of you...my internet connection is shaky tonight so you may never see this.

The 100 Amp breaker is integrated into the battery switch...the batteries go to their respective 1 - 2 terminals and then there is a 100 amp breaker between them and the panel.

I guess I am still confused about additional fusing that may be needed..my 1977 boat had minimal..but I'd like to do what I can to make it better/safer in 2011.

Going cruising this weekend...hope I don't burn the boat to the waterline with my current setup.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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  #55   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 07-30-2011, 12:44 AM
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Shawn,

I stumbled across this from Blue Sea Systems. Should answer many of your questions. Note particularly that the cranking circuit does not require protection and that all protective devices are to be in the positive conductors.

http://bluesea.com/viewresource/98
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:53 PM
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Steve-
Welcome back! Where've you been?
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  #57   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 07-30-2011, 11:43 PM
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Hi Roadnsky,

I have been getting the house ready for sale. I have been out of work since December. It was expected and we are downsizing. I ache all over. I am too old for this crap... painting, cleaning, fixing, new floors, new appliances, and I know more about staging than I ever wanted to know, but the house is finally ready. Should go on the market this week.

The boat is was due to come out of the water, but it still in the slip. I think the marina is being kind to me. Things are tough at marinas these days.

Hope all is well with you.

Now on to sastanley.
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  #58   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 07-31-2011, 12:00 AM
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Hi sastanley (it's Shawn right?),

The batteries go TO the battery switch (to terminals 1 and 2) with big fat red wires. From the battery switch (the common terminal), one big fat red wire goes to the starter motor (no fuse). FROM the battery switch (Common terminal) another big red wire goes to the breaker panel. I use a fuse in this run, a big one (60 amps). From the breaker panel, all other items can be powered, including engine circuits. On your fuse panel, think of circuits as a fan-out arrangement.

Except the alternator. Typically, the alternator is connected to the starter wire via a separate fuse (40 amps or so).

Also, engine circuits are typically fused in the engine compartment and not at the panel. But the breakers in the panel would work fine. People just don't want to run the extra wire, so they work off the starter or alternator terminal.

Other than the engine, every other device on the boat is powered from the panel through a breaker.

Although every circuit on your boat should be fused, your don't need to have a fuse for every device. For example, you can connect all your nav lights together and bring them back to one breaker. You can connect all your cabin lights together on one breaker, your nav instruments to a breaker, etc.

Make sense now?

- Steve

Last edited by High Hopes; 07-31-2011 at 12:08 AM. Reason: typo
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  #59   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 08-01-2011, 12:51 PM
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Hi Steve,
Thanks..sounds like I should fuse the output from my alternator to the battery charging isolator..I did do a dedicated run to that (4 gauge) instead of back to the starter.
I have a schematic over in the new "Drawings" section of the forum.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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  #60   IP: 64.134.224.145
Old 08-01-2011, 01:45 PM
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Steve-
Sorry to hear about the tough times. A lot of that going on.
Welcome back and smoother waters ahead...
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  #61   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 08-01-2011, 11:32 PM
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Thanks, Jerry
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  #62   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 08-02-2011, 12:09 AM
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Hi Shawn,

I found your drawing. Might I make a few suggestions.

- You have two 100 amp fuses in a row. If the first one blows, your entire boat will be dead. These fuses need to be in parallel, one going to the engine (main bus), one going to the house panel.

- I once measured the starting current on my A-4. It hit 160 amps. A 100 amp breaker will trip. You can hard wire the starter motor without a fuse directly from the battery switch.

- What is a Power Line Isolator? Is it a switch? Can you provide a part number so I can look it up?

- What purpose does the Power Post serve? You want to have as few connections as possible between the battery switch and the starter.

- The output of the alternator should go directly to a fuse (imho). You may avoid using a fuse here by wiring the alternator directly to the starter if you use a #4 wire.

- You need more fuses. As it stands now, everything has access to 100 amps. Use a 25 amp fuse for the engine circuits. I wouldn't think that you need more than 40 amps or so for your house circuits, a 60 amp fuse should do nicely.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,

Steve
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  #63   IP: 72.45.14.161
Old 08-02-2011, 09:40 AM
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Here is how my boat is wired if it helps.
As of yet I am not fusing the starter lead. The starter draws about 130 amps, so I would need at least a 200 amp slow-blow fuse. That would not protect against much but a dead short.
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Last edited by joe_db; 08-02-2011 at 09:49 AM.
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  #64   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 08-02-2011, 11:34 AM
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Steve, thanks for your advice.

You're right..that 100 amp fuse on the distro panel would kill everything in the boat (except the motor) - I could probably eliminate that considering I have the 100 AMP breaker that is integrated into the 1-2-both switch (Blue Sea #8062, no longer made, but, got it cheap)

I agree I need a fuse in the charging circuit between the alt. & the isolator. I'll have to look up the Powerline Isolator specs again...made by Hehr International. It is an old unit, & is a diode based isolator that will handle up to 70 amps I think.

The power post is a Blue Sea 2016 - I purchased that with the intent of breaking up the circuits in the engine room..what it really did was allow me to add a ground bus easily, although I could have simply run a 14# from the engine block..The (+) ended up not doing what I wanted (so it is just a connection point) because I still have to isolate the ignition voltage via the key. If I ever add a dedicated start battery (long range plan), this would likely be where I'd add it into the system & the start battery would have its own switches to isolate it from the rest of the boat.
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Last edited by sastanley; 08-02-2011 at 03:06 PM.
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  #65   IP: 68.100.177.64
Old 08-02-2011, 10:16 PM
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Hi Shawn.

Change the panel fuse to 50 amps or so. That way, if the panel shorts, the 50 amp breaker trips and the 100 amp breaker stays on for the motor.

BTW, can you get to the common terminal of the switch before the breaker, that is, to the unfused input of the breaker?

Steve
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:51 PM
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No..it is kinda integrated I think...I'll snap a pic for you the next time I am at the boat. I am sure with some fabricating, I could separate them.
I am currently chasing a failing coil I think due to over voltage issues in another thread. More on that tomorrow.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:07 PM
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I wanted to offer this about your overcurrent protection:

Regarding your 100 amp fuse and breaker, except for the cranking circuit where they're not required, in practical terms they're useless except for a catastrophic electrical failure. I'm heavy on electrical consumption and with everything running I consume less than 30 amps. That's refrigeration, radar, autopilot, halogen cabin lighting, water pressure pump, foredeck halogen light, running lights, etc., all operating simultaneously. The windlass (not yet installed) has a separate breaker so it doesn't factor in.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:21 PM
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Hi Neil,

I was thinking about that (consumption) in the other thread, where we are discussing my shutdowns, due to the (we are pretty sure) coil. I tried to load my boat up with everything I had to see if it lowered coil voltage (not everything is wired yet, however) and I could barely nudge the needle on the distro panel ammeter..I maybe got to 5 amps with every cabin light, VHF transmitting on high power, bilge pump, & running lights (2 of 3 are LED) on & according to my notes, no discernible change to the coil voltage.

The biggest draw on the boat may be the halogen deck light, which is not wired yet.
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 08-03-2011 at 12:36 PM.
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  #69   IP: 72.45.14.161
Old 08-03-2011, 07:46 PM
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My biggest draw is the shop-vac. That runs about 50 amps
The next biggest are the radios. The SSB and 2 meter both run over 20 amps.
As I replace my lights bit by bit with LEDs, the normal lighting load is dropping to almost nothing.
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:18 AM
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Quote:
My biggest draw is the shop-vac. That runs about 50 amps
The next biggest are the radios. The SSB and 2 meter both run over 20 amps.
Geez! Are you sure?!

Bill
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Old 04-17-2012, 06:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
My biggest draw is the shop-vac. That runs about 50 amps
The next biggest are the radios. The SSB and 2 meter both run over 20 amps.
As I replace my lights bit by bit with LEDs, the normal lighting load is dropping to almost nothing.
I'll bet that's one bad-ass shop-vac!

[youtube]y4sOfO8Ei1g[/YOUTUBE]
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  #72   IP: 199.173.226.236
Old 04-17-2012, 02:52 PM
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I am quite sure. I have to use it in small bursts or it either blows the inverter circuit breaker or the inverter does a thermal shutdown. Keep in mind a 5-amp draw at 120 volts = 50 amps at 12 volts. A bigger inverter and breaker are in the works.

Quote:
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Geez! Are you sure?!

Bill
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Old 04-17-2012, 03:32 PM
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Now you guys have my attention. I have a 1 Gallon Shop Vac on the boat also and I plug into a 1000W inverter. It will run for a couple of seconds then trip the inverter breaker.

If I start the engine it works fine. So, in short, I need the engine running to run the shop vac. I have two starter/deep cylce batteries aboard and I figured those would run that.

My next biggest draw is Radar. Raytheon 40XX....I used it just this morning when I got myself in the thick of it. The radar is just wired in and works fine with or without the engine running. I have to watch the power for sure with that going.

So, what's the deal with the inverter and shop vac. I put heavy wire from the inverter to batteries. Never though much of it until I saw Bills post.

Edit: I will run down to the boat here shortly and get the info off the Vac and batteries and wiring from the shop vac to batteries.
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Last edited by Mo; 04-17-2012 at 03:45 PM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:48 PM
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Mama Mia, another spicy meatball!

Mo et. al.,

I looked up the specs of your vacuum. It's difficult to read in the picture but the electrical rating at 120VAC is 6.5 amps which equals 780 watts. Your inverter is rated at 1000 watts so we should be good, yes?

Maybe not.

For the inverter to put out 780 watts, even if it operated at 100% efficiency - which it doesn't - you would need a continuous 12VDC input current of 65 amps minimum. That means #4 wire from the battery to the inverter. Is that what you have? To realize the full 1000 watts - again assuming 100% efficiency - you need 83.3 amps @ 12VDC or #2 wire.

Smaller wires on the input side will result in a serious voltage drop and the longer they are the worse the drop and that, I suspect, is the root of your problem.

I can't possibly know the intricacies of your inverter installation but I suspect too small 12VDC input wires. Beef them up and I think your problem will disappear. Well, at least the overload tripping problem will. Battery consumption is another matter.

Ever consider a broom and dustpan? Dustbuster?

I don't know that the following observation includes you Shop Vac guys but it's interesting there's a general aversion to refrigeration because of power consumption but a vacuum that hammers the living Hell out of a battery is OK?

edit:
I did a little more research and the typical inverter efficiency claim is 90%. Real world usage is more like 75%. Using the 75% figure, the most you can expect (continuous) from a 1000 watt inverter is 750 watts and that's with the 83.3 amp @12VDC input (#2 wire - bigger than what we run to our starters). I've seen this sort of thing on phase converters. We really have to oversize them for reliable operation.

Factoring in the efficiency loss, when considering a 120VAC appliance powered through an inverter, take the 120V amperage and multiply it by 13.3 to find the 12VDC amperage required to run it.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-17-2012 at 05:20 PM.
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Old 04-17-2012, 05:10 PM
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Joe:

It was the amps quoted for the radios that befuddled me.

Bill
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