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  #1   IP: 74.92.179.209
Old 08-29-2009, 07:13 PM
aklatt aklatt is offline
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bad coil??? maybe?

So my partner was motoring back to the harbor and our A4 all of a sudden quit. He managed to get it back to our can. I finally got to the boat to start trouble shooting. The motor would crank and crank but did not come close to starting. I tried to spray starter fluid in the carb, but this did not work. I pulled the high tension wire at the coil and noticed oil filling the inside of the coil. I then presumed that the coil was bad. I also found a blown inline 10 amp fuse going to the electronic fuel pump.


Anyway, I replaced the coil and fuse. I replaced all wiring as was (hoping it was correct). I then started the engine and it started right up. About 30 seconds later the engine died and there was smoke (smelling like electronic type smoke) coming from the engine. I could not tell exactly, but I believe to be coming from the coil. The engine would not start again. A few days later I tried to start the engine again. It turned right over, but died about 10 secoonds later with a faint hint of smoke again. The inline fuse is still intact. Im getting +/- 12 volts at the coil but dont seeem to get spark through the high tension wire.


I've been reading this forum and am going to try cleaning the distributor cap and rotor. Other than that I'm at a loss. I suppose I will try and replace the coil again but think that I will get the same issue. I am also going to replace the high tension wire to the distributor cap. I am also going to check the fuel pump to make sure nothing happened to that.

I just read here that it is bad to crank the engine with the fesh water valve open. I will make sure I close that and check to make sure I have no water in the engine.

Anyone know what the deal with the smoke is though and why the engine keeps dying????

thanks
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  #2   IP: 151.204.250.196
Old 08-30-2009, 08:25 AM
smosher smosher is offline
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Could have 2 things wrong, the coil and the pump.

Where is the fuse in the circuit this would be a big help,
If its between the ignition and the coil then either the pump or the coil could cause it to blow, What size is the fuse ?

The coil should have at lease 3.5 ohms resistance.

Is there fuel puddling in the throat of the carb ?.

If you have a squeeze bulb try to see if that has an effect on the motor.

I am a BIG fan of having a fuel pressure gauge in the system
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  #3   IP: 138.88.85.81
Old 08-30-2009, 10:04 AM
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some more questions to add to smoshers:

Does your A-4 have electronic ignition or the mechanical points? If the ignition unit goes bad then it won't start. Although points wear out, they are a great diagnostic tool to keep on hand as they will usually allow you to get the engine running again..the electronic unit works great when it works, but it either works, or doesn't.

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  #4   IP: 68.104.51.247
Old 08-30-2009, 11:19 AM
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Another Place to Check...

Quote:
Originally Posted by aklatt View Post
Anyway, I replaced the coil and fuse. I replaced all wiring as was (hoping it was correct). I then started the engine and it started right up. About 30 seconds later the engine died and there was smoke (smelling like electronic type smoke) coming from the engine. I could not tell exactly, but I believe to be coming from the coil.
The "Electronic Smoke" sounds to me like a shorting wire.
The first place I'd check is the wire (points) or wires (Electronic) from under the distributor cap to the coil. (See pics below)
Sometimes they can get pinched or touch the engine when it's hot.
While you're there check the distributor cap for cracks, tight fit, loose plug wire connections, etc.

I'd also check any wiring relative to your ignition, as any short there will cause your described symptoms.

Finally, I'm attaching Don's Non-Starting Checklist. Work down through it and report back here with your findings.
The more info and symptoms you can provide the better chance someone here on the forum has of helping.
You'll find it...
Attached Images
  
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Non-starting checklist.pdf (11.6 KB, 1106 views)
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  #5   IP: 68.104.51.247
Old 08-30-2009, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklatt View Post
I also found a blown inline 10 amp fuse going to the electronic fuel pump.
Hmm, I found this post from Don and it relates to your 10A fuse blowing...

"Most electric fuel pump manufactures today recommend 5 to 10 amp fuse protection in this circuit, but many engines supplied by Universal in the late 1970’s and early 1980’s (probably several thousand!) were shipped without fuses in this circuit. The Facet Pump Company currently recommends 5 amp fuse protection in this circuit, but many of the earlier Facet pumps had stickers allowing up to 10 amp fuse protection.

This circuit is particularly hazardous due to the “soldering iron” effect. If this circuit is only protected by the 20 amp fuse between the coil and the ignition switch, a partially shorted fuel pump can create considerable heat (equivalent to a soldering iron, hence the name of this process) while only drawing 10 to 18 amps – thereby never blowing the 20 amp fuse. Considerable heat can be generated even at 8 to 10 amps, which is probably why Facet is now recommending 5 amp fusing."


It might explain the burning smell. Here's the link to the entire post...
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ition+shorting
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  #6   IP: 142.68.250.220
Old 08-30-2009, 02:48 PM
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I don't like the smoke and blowing fuse. I think I'd be digging carefully into the whole circuit to look for that short and any other potential wiring problems before putting any elecricity through it again.
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  #7   IP: 173.105.56.237
Old 08-31-2009, 12:11 PM
aklatt aklatt is offline
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This forum is great; huge help to a new A4 owner! Thanks for all the advice. Im heading out to the boat today to see what I can do.

I do have electronic ignition. I may pick up some points from the ship store today too see if that works. Im going to double check the fuel side as well.

Ill report back tonite.

Huge thanks again everyone.
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  #8   IP: 173.121.79.245
Old 08-31-2009, 09:44 PM
aklatt aklatt is offline
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Installed new coil today, getting spark through high tension wire. Checked fuel output through electronic pump; nothing. There is actually a hole in the side of the pump. All wiring appears in order. I think the other (new) coil somehow shorted o\r something like that and caused this damage. Any thoughts?

Ill be installing a new fuel pump wednesday and hopefully all will be restored to order in my A4 world.

Thanks
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  #9   IP: 68.104.51.247
Old 08-31-2009, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aklatt View Post
Installed new coil today, getting spark through high tension wire. Checked fuel output through electronic pump; nothing. There is actually a hole in the side of the pump. All wiring appears in order. I think the other (new) coil somehow shorted o\r something like that and caused this damage. Any thoughts?

Ill be installing a new fuel pump wednesday and hopefully all will be restored to order in my A4 world.

Is the coil the correct one for your ignition?
I'm concerned because we still don't know WHY the other 2 coils "smoked".
AND something CAUSED that hole in the pump!
Did you check wires for shorts? Find anything?
Electrical shorts and gas are not good partners...
What kind of pump? FACET?
(Remember you want 2-3 PSI from it)
Also, don't forget to put a fuse in that line.

Please don't take my questions the wrong way.
Just trying to play "Devil's Advocate" so you don't spend money and still have a problem...
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Last edited by roadnsky; 08-31-2009 at 10:19 PM.
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  #10   IP: 67.90.51.162
Old 09-01-2009, 10:08 AM
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Aklatt, do us all a favor and post a picture of that hole in the fuel pump. How old was it?

It is possible that you have two things going on simultaneously, coil failure and fuel pump failure, but my experience is that it is almost always a single cause. The secondary cause is our lack of experience.

I'm wondering whether your problems weren't all fuel related. Possibly the pump had a major failure which caused the engine to starve for fuel and die, the coil problem was a misdiagnosis. For some unexplained reason (possibly the liquid in the cap of the coil) you didn't get spark. When you replaced the coil the fuel that had filled the float bowl through gravity (because your pump was dead) started her up and the engine ran for 30 seconds until the bowl emptied and it died. The smoke was the final death throws of your fuel pump. The engine wouldn't start again because the float bowl was empty and it takes a while for gravity to refill the bowl when it runs through a compromised pump. When you returned with a third coil the bowl was again full and the engine started up and ran until the bowl emptied.

Perhaps an initial coil failure caused this, sending high voltage through the + terminal where the fuel pump lead connects, and damaged the wrappings in the fuel pump before melting the fuse? But that sounds too fantastic. Test those coils and see if they are actually dead.

But I'd love to see the damage to the fuel pump. I'm sure they make them so that the wire wrappings never approach the fuel, but that kind of failure shouldn't happen.
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  #11   IP: 173.104.139.253
Old 09-04-2009, 06:29 PM
aklatt aklatt is offline
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Here is the photo of the zapped fuel pump. Was just able to order replacement today. Will install next week and report back.



[/IMG]
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  #12   IP: 173.73.53.19
Old 09-04-2009, 09:56 PM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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That looks like some type of internal short.
The power lead appears undamaged.
A clear argument for mechanical if I ever saw one.It would seem fortunate it was all gummed up and did not spray ignited fuel under pressure out that blow hole.
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  #13   IP: 142.68.248.1
Old 09-05-2009, 06:34 AM
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Good example of why it is so important to chase a blown fuse.
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  #14   IP: 142.68.250.0
Old 09-07-2009, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keelcooler View Post
A clear argument for mechanical if I ever saw one.
I'm not so sure. I'd like to know why that particular part failed that way.
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  #15   IP: 173.73.53.19
Old 09-07-2009, 09:20 AM
keelcooler keelcooler is offline
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I would guess the pump actuator locked up trying to pump goo.No apparent melt down shorting of the power lead.A dead short would have cooked the lead if not fitted with a fuse.
Suspect internal arcing type of shorting that would burn through that sheet metal housing.
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  #16   IP: 142.68.250.0
Old 09-07-2009, 02:51 PM
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That would argue for preventive replacement of electric fuel pumps every so many years, maybe?? This one looks pretty old. Mechanical pumps would just quick working I suppose, but when there is electricity the list of possible failures theoreticallyb includes heat around the gas. While I agree that this is one risk maybe less likely to occur with mechanical pumps (I have no professional knowledge of the relative risk of fire for the two types of pumps), I imagine there have been hundreds of thousands (millions?) of electric fuel pumps used on land, at sea and in the air for decades. I did not find much using Google, and I see they even use electric fuel pumps inside fuel tanks.
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  #17   IP: 173.104.71.251
Old 09-13-2009, 02:22 PM
aklatt aklatt is offline
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New fuel pump installed, engine came to life. Thanks everyone.
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