lights go out as A-4 stops

[capnward]

A couple of mysteries;
Yesterday before trying to start my usually trusty A-4 for the first time this spring, I tried removing spark plugs and shooting a little Marvel Oil into each cylinder. The idea was to lubricate the pistons to reduce wear when starting after they dried out over the winter. Plugs went back in, but the engine wouldn't start. Spark looked ok. Today I noticed the telltale red color of the oil coming out the bottom of the carb at the choke valve stem fitting. The carb had a lot of red-colored gas in it. No junk in it otherwise. I removed it and cleaned it, putting carb cleaner through the jets, and reinstalled. She started right up and ran fine after some smoky exhaust at first. I didn't think the Marvel would work its way into the carburetor and make the gasoline less flammable, but it did. I guess I put too much Marvel in the cylinders, and/or did it too soon before starting.
The other mystery, and the reason for the thread, is this:
After running for about a half-hour the engine suddenly lost some RPM and sounded different, as though some additional load was on it. It was in forward about 1200 rpm at the time, in the slip. I tried putting it in reverse for a while, in case something was in the prop, to maybe back it off. No change.
Then, after running the A-4 for an hour, I shut off the fuel upstream of the RACOR filter, and waited for it to run out of gas. I do this sometimes to keep the carb clean of fuel that may have dirt in it while it sits unused. It's not a problem as long as I remember to turn off power to the coil after the A4 shuts down. I had the blower running during this time, which is not usual, since I leave the engine compartment open and am there sniffing for gas. This time, when the engine shut down after a few minutes, the lights in the engine compartment and the blower shut down at the same time, but only for two seconds or so. Other electrical things may have stopped too, I don't know. This has never happened before. What could it be? Is there an alternator problem?
Appreciate any thoughts, thanks.

[msauntry]

I'd check for loose connections or suspect corrosion has gotten hold in the wires/connectors somewhere. Electric gremlins are hard to find, so you have to be thorough and persistent.

The drop in rpm might have been a fouling plug? Pull off the plug wires one at a time while its running and you should notice a drop every time. If one of the plugs is bad, you won't hear a change on that one.

The MMO can make its way down an intake valve from the combustion chamber to the carb. No harm done. I'd NOT run the carb dry though. That's the easiest way to get buildup of residue.

[capnward]

Thanks, I will check for bad connections. The plugs are due for replacement anyway, as are the plug wires. The plugs did seem a little fouled.
My rationale for running the carb dry has been this; the more gas in the carb when shut down, the more residue will settle in it as the gas sits in the carb and evaporates over time. If the gas runs out to be combusted, the residue that is suspended in the gasoline will go with it. I may be wrong, with an overactive imagination. I don't run it dry unless I suspect dirt in the gas, or unless it will be shut down for a long time. I can't say that leaving the carb full, as I usually do, has had any ill effects. But running it dry doesn't seem to make for more crud in the jets, in my experience. Maybe that's because I don't do it very often. Or maybe because the gas is usually clean, since I use non-ethanol fuel, avoid motoring in chop,and have two inline filters in addition to the RACOR. At any rate, I will stop running it dry, except maybe when laying up for the winter, and see if it makes a difference. Besides, it's easier that way.

[Mo]

The time to put oil in the top end it when you lay the boat up. I remove the carb and do this...and yes, I pour in lots of oil and it comes down the manifold where the carb attaches. I always dis assemble and clean my carb each fall as well. Personally, I make a point to turn the engine over a few times once a month just so that no rust ring will develop.

Start up day the carb goes back on and fire up the engine. It smokes pretty good for about 10-15 minutes (it takes that long to burn everything off) then it goes away. At that point I pull the plugs and clean them...good for the season.

Your electrical issue where all lights went out: Happened to me last year a just after motoring for 5 or 6 hrs. It was caused by corrosion on a plastic block where attaching large hot wire on alternator. I inadvertently hit it with my arm looking for cause and the lights flickered. 10 minute fix...took apart and cleaned up connections. That issue could be just about anywhere but that's a good place to start.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Mo, inadverntly or otherwise, came up with a good troubleshooting procedure.
Turn the blower on or the whatever else on and shake the wires around until you find the loose connection. Been there. Done it.

TRUE GRIT

[Mo]

John, the best thing about this forum is we have a guru in every department. I was at a place called Rogues Roost when that happened, and although I got it working, the first thing I did was email Neil Dutton ... got an email back from Neil within minutes. Sometimes having someone in your corner is the comfort that assures us that all is right in the world.

Was on the first evening of a 4 day weekend down the shore (I ended up changing the plastic block when I got home) but I knew what it was!

[JOHN COOKSON]

When I discovered the clip that attached the wire to the alternator field coil (I don't know if this is the correct name) to the wire from coil + was corroded I cut it away and ran a new wire (with a fuse) from coil + then spliced, soldered, and heat shrunk the conection.

Yes, I know. If I ever have to remove the alternator I'll have to cut or unsolder the connection. So be it.

An intersting sidelight: Before I did this the alternator never seemed to be charging the battery correctly. After I got rid of the corroded clip everything seems to be normal as far as the battery discharge\charge cycle goes. I'm not an alternator expert so maybe it's my imagination here......

TRUE GRIT

[toddster]

I would certainly go over all of the wiring though... I've heard of those "lights going out" episodes being the symptom that immediately preceded the fire that destroyed the boat...

[Dave Neptune]

capnward, most often bad connections and or corrosion work on the ground side of the current.
If you have any ground cables that are not looking good on the ends AND they have a dip in the cable give the cable a wiggle at the dip. I have seen all to often a ground cable with a "dip" in it corrode at the dip due to moisture accumulating over the YEARS. I have seen powder come out of a cable when split open to check. You will feel the flexability of the cover and not the wire, kinda like a soft spot.
Also take a good look at the key switch and the engines harness plug if still equipped with one. After these your chasing a short and good luck to that.

Dave Neptune

[capnward]

I have not done any troubleshooting like wiggling wires around when things are on, but I had better start soon. Dave's suggestion to look at ground connections would be a good place to start. Today when turning off the engine, not only did the knotmeter and the GPS go off for a few seconds, which I had started to ignore, but I also noticed the cabin light switch light on the breaker panel, which is always on, was off too. When I saw that, I tried the starter button, and nothing there either. So it seems that all electrical power is stopped for a few seconds when turning off the engine. Then it goes back on by itself. I will order a new ignition switch for a spare, as I suspect that is part of the problem. But how could a bad ignition switch turn off power to everything? And why would the shutdown be momentary? I have to find the problem before it becomes permanent.

[Dave Neptune]

capnward, what you are describing points at a bad connection or switch somewhere. You should trace and check the offending ignition, gage of lights ground paths first. You should also try to figure out just exactly what is powering up with the key switch!
The intermittent failures do indicate a power problem and those problems are usually on the ground side. Most connections on the power side are easy to give a wiggle and see corrosion, however the problem "USUALLY" is on the ground side and must be checked all the way to the batteries.

Dave Neptune

[tenders]

Did your boat once have a loran system? Those often came with large capacitors installed somewhere in the electrical system (not on the device itself) to filter out engine noise. When they die, odd things can happen, as we know occurs with dying coils, which are another type of capacitor. Though what is happening here really does not sound like anything coil-related.

But I would agree, first rule out or replace the moving part that changes position as this situation is presenting itself: the ignition switch.

How's the condition of your batteries?

You're going to need a cheap voltmeter, if you don't already have one onboard. Less than $15 at Harbor Freight, or Radio Shack.

[joe_db]

Engine loaded up = increased load on alternator.
Electrical devices quit when engine stops = no more battery in the circuit.

I would triple-check every bit of wiring between the the battery and engine.

[Mo]

Have a look at the connection "power" at the alternator as well. Mine has a plastic bushing / block there and had no lights / no power when shut down last year. Cleaned up connection and tightened it and all was well.

[capnward]

After studying the wiring compared to other ways of wiring Ignition switch, ammeter and alternator, I changed the connections so that the power to the ignition switch comes from the same post on the ammeter that is connected to the output of the alternator, instead of from the positive bus. The positive bus gets its power from the other post on the ammeter, which is connected to the starter at the post where the big wire from the battery switch connects.
This I think means that the ignition is now on a different circuit from all the other electrical things.
The engine started, ran for 20 minutes, and when I turned it off, the electricity stayed on. But I think it didn’t always shut down before when engine was turned off. Time will tell if I really fixed it. We’ll see if it works right once everything has been running for a while and is fully warmed up.
Ammeter readings seen unchanged. It only shows a little on the positive side when rpms get to a point where the alternator starts charging, and since batteries are usually charged, the ammeter needle goes back to just above center after a few minutes.
I still wonder what changed to create this phenomenon in the first place.
I also cleaned the connection at the output post on the alternator, maybe that was the fix. It didn’t look bad, but may have been just dirty enough. That is not a ground, however. There are other connections to ground I can inspect.

[67c&ccorv]

Ok - I'll stick with the "adding MMO to your cylinders and it came out the carb" and leave the electrical stuff to gurus like Neil;

...what do you think happens when you add a ton of MMO into a cylinder that has a piston on the bottom end of the stroke?

Right - when the piston rises the oil has to go somewhere...in this case it sounds like you were lucky enough that one or more of your valves were open and allowed the MMO to exit into your intake and carb.

That might not be the case if you are on the compression stroke and you hydraulic your cylinder into pieces.

[ndutton]

Your wiring modification means the ammeter won't account for engine loads. It raises a question though: do you want the ammeter to report on ALL loads vs. alternator output or just some of them? Same question another way, what do you want out of an ammeter?

Assuming all components are in good order, the wiring modification should not make a difference in engine operation in terms of the ignition system. It's possible undoing and reconnecting the ignition switch feed wire resolved a previously poor connection.

[capnward]

Yesterday I found that all electricity still can shutdown when turning off the engine. Not every time, though. This time it stayed off for 6 minutes before reconnecting itself. Thankfully. I motored into the slip, turned it off again, and power stayed on. The mystery remained. So, changing the ignition power source from the positive bus to the ammeter had no effect. I had to keep troubleshooting.
I removed all the old wires that used to lead to the loran, which has been gone for years. They were still attached to the buses, and the ground wire to the block. I saw no capacitor; that may have been removed with the loran.
I checked the big wire connections from the block to the negative battery terminal. It looked OK.
I connected the ammeter ground post to the instrument panel, but I think that's only needed if you have a light on the ammeter. I don't.
Then I noticed two connections on the negative bus that weren't as tight as they should be. One went to the knotmeter, the other went to the engine block. I tightened both. I suspect and hope this loose connection to the engine block was the culprit. If not, you will hear from me again.
I ran the A4 for a half hour under load, and turned it off under load. The electricity stayed on. This time. We'll see if it is permanent.
I have a 30 amp breaker between the starter and the ammeter. If this shutdown happens again, I will test that breaker to see if it had 'broken.' The fact the shutdown is temporary suggests the breaker is separating, cooling for a while and then reconnecting. If that is the source of the shutdown, why it disconnected is still unknown. There used to be a fuse there until last year. Why would turning off the ignition switch create more than 30 amps in the circuit? But it's probably just the loose connection to ground, and the breaker has nothing to do with it.
To respond to Neil, I don't really know what an ammeter does, or if mine is wired right. I hardly ever look at it. The only time it shows anything is when the alternator kicks in and starts charging. The needle drops to zero soon after that. I have a cheap digital voltmeter that plugs into a cigarette-lighter type outlet. It tells me if the batteries are charging. I thought an ammeter is there to measure the power draw of different circuits when they are on, like lights, radio, gps, knotmeter, etc. But if, as I read somewhere here, the ammeter never shows on the negative side, it would not perform that function, and would only show when the alternator is charging the batteries. Mine seems to do this. Do I understand this correctly? I may decide to eliminate the ammeter, as I have seen recommended by some here, but am uncertain how to wire the system without it. I suppose I would connect the alternator to the same post on the ignition switch as the wire to the breaker, as in the DCpowerschemweb.pdf created by our host. Or maybe I would connect the alternator to the large post on the starter.
In the meantime I have just changed the wiring on the ammeter to correspond to the C+C 30 wiring schematic,
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1341 . Now the ignition switch is connected to the I post on the ammeter, along with the wire from the 30amp breaker/starter/battery, and the wire to the positive bus for accessories is connected to the S post on the ammeter along with the output wire from the alternator. The ignition and bus wires had been reversed at the ammeter. I see no difference in ammeter readings while engine is running.
After running the engine again and turning off the ignition switch, the electricity stayed on again! I will keep my fingers crossed. Sorry for the long post.

[ndutton]

Sounds like you're gaining on it.

Ammeter information is a personal choice. Not all ammeters show positive and negative current flow although the typical 2" round panel types do. Some folks swear by them, others see no value at all and still others land somewhere in the middle.

I don't have one in my engine instrument panel but I prefer one (load only, no charge) in my DC distribution panel. It's a larger scale and more accurate instrument that tells me my electrical consumption on the fly, something I like to keep on top of.

[Al Schober]

I'll share an interesting 'bad wire' story..
Volvo 140 series would occasionally just die, but then restart after a few minutes and run fine. Eventually got to the diagnosis by wiggling/tugging on wires with the engine running. Found a bad 12V lead between the distributor (on the fender well) and the distributor. A left turn would rock the engine to the right and tug on the wire, separating the ends of the broken conductor and killing the engine. After a few minutes, the elasticity of the jacket would pull the wires back together, restoring continuity.

[capnward]

Yesterday, on my 14th trip of the year, the problem I thought was fixed last September suddenly reoccurred. On the third trip of the day, after about 20 minutes of running, I turned off the engine to begin sailing, and power to knotmeter, cabin lights, starter button, and ignition switch all went off, and stayed off for maybe a half hour until coming back on by itself. I started the engine, but was afraid to turn it off until we got to the dock, as the wind was dying and I need to return on time. On returning to the dock I turned it off and electricity remained on as if there was never a problem. The bilge pump, which is wired directly to the battery, remained workable the whole time. The connections that I tightened in September were still tight.
Today everything was working. Then I replaced the 30 amp breaker on the positive wire from the starter with a 40 amp fuse in an inline holder. (The 40 amp fuse is connected with a #10 wire, because I didn't have any #8. It's about 3' long. is that acceptable?) I was thinking that I could check the fuse the next time the power went off, easier then checking the breaker. Plus maybe the breaker was part of the problem. Turning the power back on, there was no juice at the ammeter end of the wire from the starter, as if the fuse had fried, but the fuse was fine. No power to the ignition or the accessories either. Not even from the battery terminal or the battery switch. I was wondering if my tester light was broken, when power came on again, after maybe 20 minutes.
Then I tried starting it; the starter bumped once, and all power shut off, except to the bilge pump. This has never happened before while starting, only when shutting down. The battery has 13.4 volts on the multi-tester. It's like a car with bad connections at the battery terminals, but they look fine, clean and tight. Engine fires up fine, if there is electricity.
One end of the new fuse wire had power, the other didn't, so I guess my new fuse wire must have a bad butt connector, although it was good enough before I tried to start the engine. After waiting a half hour for it to magically reconnect, I removed the fuse wire, fuse still intact, and reattached the one piece wire from the starter to the circuit breaker. This is the arrangement that was working fine until yesterday. A few seconds after I turned on the battery switch, not immediately, power returned to the ignition and accessories circuits. Maybe it was just coincidence, after 45 minutes. Then she started, after not starting with the new fuse, wire, and connectors. But now I find that the fuse and wire don't make the tester light up when connected between both battery terminals, so that is a separate problem. It explains why the engine didn't start, but not why the power shut off at the same time.
There seems to be a bad connection somewhere, but I can find no loose or corroded connections. Maybe the big wire from the block to the negative terminal has issues inside it, but it looks OK on the ends. No part of it is soft. I reattached the cables to the battery terminals, although they looked perfect.
Everything is OK at the moment, but I never know if turning the engine off, or now perhaps, attempting to start it, will disable the power. So far, it comes back on eventually, but I wonder if someday it will go off permanently. My business depends on dependable motoring, so you can understand my frustration. Could this be an alternator problem?

[hanleyclifford]

Wouldn't hurt to have a look at that alt+ terminal. Usually there is an insulator of some kind that keeps it off the casing as it goes thru.

[capnward]

This may finally be the end of this thread. Well, I replaced the connector at the alternator end of the wire to the ammeter. I also cleaned up the other alternator connections. I started to take the alternator apart to look at the +connection area, couldn't figure out how it was supposed to work, so cleaned it up and put it back together. This did not solve the problem. I also ordered a new 55 amp alternator to replace the existing Motorola 35 amp one. This too may have been unnecessary, but the 10 year old alternator looked full of oily lint.
Today when turning off the engine, the power went off too, so I started wiggling around wires, and discovered that the connection was intermittent at the starter, where the wire connects the starter to the 30 amp circuit breaker, which is then connected to the ammeter. The connection was not loose, but somehow not completely connecting. That ring connector is new, and is on the same large post on the starter as the big wire from the battery switch. Looking at it more closely, the only thing I could see that might be wrong with it was that the heat shrink sleeve I put on it extended too far toward the ring, keeping the ring from completely touching the other ring connector on the post, the one at the end of the big wire from the battery switch. It also may have made it harder to tighten the nut over the rings. So I trimmed back the heat shrink sleeve with a knife so that the ring touched the other ring all the way around. The two ring connectors are now more thoroughly touching each other. Since then, I have turned the engine off three times and the power stayed on. I think I actually fixed it this time.
We'll see.

[hanleyclifford]

Keep us informed. Every time one of these aggravating problems is solved we all learn something here. DOTO strikes again (don't overlook the obvious).