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  #1   IP: 69.54.63.217
Old 03-09-2016, 05:05 PM
bradh bradh is offline
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Prop Shaft - where to start and end....

At end of season haul out, my prop shaft looked bent. I could see what looked to be run out between the shaft and the hull (where it enters at the water) when I hand turned it.

When I removed the shaft, I noticed about 5-10 degrees of slop/backlash at the coupling and shaft (Is that normal or excessive?). The key way on the coupling looks to be distorted (wider aft). Also the detent on the shaft for the coupler set screw looks a little beat up (see picture). When I put the shaft on a granite surface plate, I only get about a 0.010 in of bend (is that excessive?). I am wondering if the shaft is not really bent all that bad and the run out I observed was just due to slop in the key way (probably caused over time by misalignment)?

So I am trying to decide how carried away to get here....
1) new coupling, cutlass
2) new shaft, coupling, cutlass
3) new bigger 7/8 shaft, coupling, stuffing box, cutlass, reprop with an Indigo

I currently have a 3/4" shaft, with a Michigan Saiiler 2 blade 12-7. Option 3 comes down to how great is an Indigo on a 35-II and how much does it add drag under sail?

I have also gotten mixed responses on the 3/4" shaft diameter. I have seen specific reviews of my boat (Ericson 35-II) that say the shaft is undersized. But others tell me that it is appropriate (46" long shaft).

Thanks in advance for thoughts and feedback.


Brad
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  #2   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 03-10-2016, 02:11 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Brad, looks like the coupling was a bit loose for a while, thus the tiny bit of distortion and the wear on the set screw detent. Neither look to be bad enough to worry about.

RE the .010 runout that isn't to bad depending on where it is along the shaft. That little amount can easily be "peen straightened" if it does cause a wobble.

Did you have any vibration to speak of?

Dave Neptune
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Old 03-11-2016, 04:02 PM
bradh bradh is offline
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Dave,

No unusual vibration. Though we purchased the boat mid-season, so I am just getting to know her usual "feel".

The bend seems to be right about mid shaft. So I think I will look at getting it peen straightened, swap out the cutlass bearing, and get a new coupler. Does that sound reasonable?

Thanks for the feedback!

Brad

Last edited by bradh; 03-11-2016 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 03-11-2016, 06:00 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Brad, sounds good. I would also be sure it was the correct keyway in the coupling.
Pull the coupling and have whoever is doing the straightening check it. May be fine once cleaned up and tightened properly. If you replace consider a split coupling as they clamp for additional holding.

I too have the E35MkII with a 3/4" shaft, no problems for the 35 years I have owned her. Did replace the packing and straightened the shaft. I do peen straightening all the time!!! When you take the shaft in mark where the cutlass and the packing are so no peening will be done in those areas.

When replacing BE SURE TO MOUNT A RETAINING COLLAR on the shaft just incase!!!!!!!

Dave Neptune
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Old 03-13-2016, 04:02 PM
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Dave,

Sure enough - the key is a nice slip fit on the shaft, but the key way on the coupling is larger (taking measurements tomorrow). Any idea what the width of the coupling key way is supposed to be? I'm just wondering if I get a new coupling, it will be the same size and it's the shaft that is actually wrong (undersized).

Thanks!

Brad
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:03 AM
bradh bradh is offline
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The shaft key slot is 3/16 and the coupling is 5/16. (I see on Moyer's website that the standard is 3/16 on the coupling). So that explains the backlash. I am also assuming that allowed the set screw to slide around in the detent on the shaft and caused what looked to be bent shaft run out. So I am going to get the shaft starightened, new coupling and key.

On your suggestion for the shaft collar. Is it bad form to rely on the zinc? The zinc is between the hull and the strut.

Brad
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Old 03-14-2016, 10:07 AM
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You may want to compare the cost of a new shaft vs. repair of the old one. For a small additional investment you could benefit by having no wear to deal with at the stuffing box and strut.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:54 AM
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Dave,

So it ends up the key way in my coupling was over-sized. (1/4" key on shaft and 5/16" on coupling). So I would have to enlarge the key-way on the shaft.

How much of a difference did putting an Indigo on your E35 MkII make? Is it work the $? This is my second season with the boat. First season just made me expect to watch the bow swing left when backing out of the slip. So I know what to expect now, but still not proficient in correcting for it.

I came up with 3 options (ala Neil's suggestion):

Option 1 - New 3/4 Shaft ~$470 (2 Piece coupling, Cutlass Bearing, shaft, anode)

Option 2 - New 7/8 Shaft - $900 (Indigo Prop, 2 piece Coupling, Cutlass Bearing, Shaft, Stuffing Box, Prop Nuts, anode)

Option 3 - Rework current 3/4 Shaft - $400 (2 piece coupling, cutlass bearing)


I think option 3 is out. So the question becomes if I go to a bigger shaft and get an Indigo.

Brad
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Old 03-26-2016, 05:34 PM
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for a bigger shaft, would you not also need a new strut? ( in addition to cutless, stuffing box, coupler)
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:22 PM
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I would stay with a 3/4 shaft. It has worked and other boats have them successfully. No need to spin more then you have to.

The indigo prop is available for 3/4.
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:25 PM
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I agree with the others. $500 is about what I spent to replace my shaft, coupler, cutless bearing, rear main seal (while I was that deep into it.) I also did an Indigo prop (not included in that $500), which started the whole thing, and took me down the rabbit hole of the shaft replacement. This also allows a nice fresh 'fit & face' with new parts, and you should be able to align everything relatively easily and it will be like a new motor with the smoothness and alignment!

I like option #1. If Dave Neptune's been spinning a 3/4" shaft across the Pacific Ocean this long without problems, I think you'll be OK!!
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Old 03-26-2016, 09:56 PM
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I don't have to replace the strut because I can fit a cutlass bearing for either a 3/4" or a 7/8". I also have room in the log (for up to a 1"); if I had to replace the strut, it would be a slam dunk to stay at a 3/4". I have the Michigan 12x7 two blade that loves to walk the boat to port. So based on your feedback, this all comes down to if I should change to the Indigo (and if I should, I might as well, go 7/8", right)? It sounds like a new shaft is the way to go, but do I put a new indigo on it while I am there?
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:21 PM
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Before committing to the Indigo, I suggest 'going deep' with questions for Dave Neptune and Shawn Stanley. They both have Indigo's and while Dave's boat is identical to yours, Shawn's is very close in LWL and displacement.

Tailor your questions to how you use your engine. Engine use in and out of the slip is very different from motoring for days on end. How much stopping power do you need? If you're in a crowded area, emergency stopping power may be an important feature. If you have a downwind slip in a typically windy marina, same thing. Racers would be apoplectic over a three bladed prop unless it enhanced their handicap rating greater than the sailing performance hit.

edit: BTW Brad, next time you're backing give her a burst of thrust to just get her moving then immediately shift to neutral and coast backwards. You'll have much more control.
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Last edited by ndutton; 03-26-2016 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 03-26-2016, 10:23 PM
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Its hard to argue with the benefits of.the indigo, if your running direct drive.
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Old 03-26-2016, 11:35 PM
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Brad, I have the Indigo on a Tartan 34. It backs to port big time. It is almost impossible to back down on the anchor.

Once I get some way on, it goes fine backwards. Docking can be quite the challenge if I need reverse. I come in at a snails pace since backing to port screws me up.

I still would recommend the Indigo though.
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:02 AM
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Romantic Comedy's information is exactly what I was talking about. If your interest in an Indigo prop was to allay reverse prop walk (as indirectly implied by the criticism of the 12x7 2 blade characteristic in post #12), it sounds like you'll be disappointed.

If your interest in the Indigo was broader, particularly wanting to operate in a higher RPM range approaching what the reduction gear guys enjoy and now with the understanding that reverse prop walk is a way of life, then the Indigo may be worth the investment to you. Romantic Comedy feels it is but prop walk may have been low on his list of expected improvements.

Said again, assess your needs and expectations and rely on the experiences of others available on this forum before the final decision.
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Old 03-27-2016, 09:13 AM
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I have the Indigo on a 3/4" shaft and like it well enough. Its main benefit is that its smaller size lets the engine run closer to its sweet spot in power output. It is nominally better in reverse, because when you goose the engine it bites a little sooner, but no sailboat and no prop is good in reverse. Prop walk at low hull speed is a fact of fluid dynamics, you can either kvetch about it endlessly or use it to your advantage (because it happens in forward too).

If I were you I'd stick with the 3/4" and go with the Indigo.
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:04 AM
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My Tartan 30 has the engine mounter at the center of the keel forward and aft but on the port side of the keel. To the extent that my waterpump is almost.over the line of keel bolts.

My shaft log.and shaft exit the hull at the rear center line of the keel. Therefore my shaft and prop are pointing to starboard. Backing to St a rboard is just a fact of life with a T30

To compensate I ,and I under s tamd othrrs, when backing, engage reverse just enlugh to cause movement then shift back to neutral. by shifting in and oit of reverse I am able to bacm down in a pretty straight line. well as straight as any sailoat can.
However I go oit of my way to avoid backing into slips.in winfdy , crowded or current affected waterways.
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Old 03-27-2016, 11:12 AM
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bradh, I would suggest sticking with the 3/4" shaft. It is plenty big enough to handle the A-4 and will be easier to replace. In many of the E-35mkII's with the engine under the setee alignment is a problem. I have a cored hull and actually have a "mis-alignment" that can not be adjusted out. I have heard of more than a few of this model using the long 3/4" shaft as sort of a "flex shaft" and they recommend not going bigger for this fact. "Hanley" you can avoid twitching here if you can. I have run my Volador for over 35 years now with this alignment issue and no problems. I have also seen two of these E-35's with the port rear mount left out to allow for alignment to be done properly.

I did change out my log once in the 35 years as it was wearing against one side, duh. I pulled the shaft, straightened it and installed the new packing on a fresh spot of the shaft with a longer piece of hose. That's been working for at least 10 years now and no leaks or issues running with the Indigo. I have many years experience using the Indigo and found it to be a vast improvement over the other 5 props I had tried!!!!!

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Old 03-27-2016, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
edit: BTW Brad, next time you're backing give her a burst of thrust to just get her moving then immediately shift to neutral and coast backwards. You'll have much more control.
When you use the initial burst of power in reverse have the rudder amid ship. It's temping to think "if the boat walks to port I'll put the rudder to port, make a resistance on that side, and the boat will back straighter." It won't work. Water needs to be flowing past the rudder before it has any turning action. This is the advantage of the initial burst of power. It makes it so you can steer.

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Old 03-27-2016, 02:46 PM
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Racers would be apoplectic over a three bladed prop unless it enhanced their handicap rating greater than the sailing performance hit.
Extra credit for the excellent use of apoplectic...
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:18 PM
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Extra credit for the excellent use of apoplectic...
It's racers. They're apoplectic most of the time anyway . . .
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Old 03-27-2016, 04:36 PM
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Neil has it right.

Props on sailboats are going to be a compromise.

How does a T 30 back to starboard?

The Tartan 34 has the engine in the main cabin. The prop is way forward of the rudder. The prop is almost 1/3 of the boat length forward.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:33 PM
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Whether I am driving my Stepdad's Tartan 3000 (A Tartan 30 hull with spade rudder, better keel and an 11HP M-15 diesel with Martec folding prop) or my C-30 with the OEM 12x7 2-blade, or my C-30 with the Indigo..the key is always as John Cookson noted above. You have GOT to get the boat moving backwards to get flow over the rudder, which is now flowing backwards of its designed NACA foil shape (keel included!) if you expect any control in reverse. With the reversing gear on an A-4, prop speed is reduced from the typical 1:1 direct drive for a given RPM, so it is imperative to get the RPM's UP and get going, then you can reduce RPM & ease the lever into neutral, etc, and let the rudder work.

I've found a negligible difference in my boat's reverse handling with the standard 12x7 2-blade, or the 10x7.4 Indigo.

Neil, I do notice a bit of difference in sailing performance in light air since I am a racer at heart, but it is not enough to offset the benefits of running at a higher RPM under power (the sweet spot) in the typically light air Chesapeake, where we sometimes have to motor 25-30 NM to get to our next anchorage.
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Old 03-27-2016, 08:36 PM
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Shawn,
Have you done any emergency stops with the Indigo?
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