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  #1   IP: 76.173.186.89
Old 10-05-2010, 09:11 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Mystery Starting Problem

I recently repaired my engine via replacing the coil and electronic ignition module, and then pulled some chunks of material out of the thermostat well to clean out the exhaust system. This is all I've really done to the engine and it ran well for a while, but now has stopped starting. I checked the spark from the coil and it is sparking blue/orange close to the block. I've yet to check the spark plugs (but if it was ONE spark plug would that stop the whole engine from firing?).

So I assumed it was a carberator issue after checking the fuel filter and the fuel pump, to no avail. After cleaning the carb with carb cleaner (acetone/heptane) and hitting it with some starter fluid, I still couldn't get the engine to start. I consistently hear the beginning noises of the engine and then run into a dull, longer, drawn-out sound.

I looked inside the engine compartment with my wife firing the engine and there is some water coming out of the outlet hose running from the heat exchanger, but I assumed that wouldn't stop the engine from actually firing and turning over?

Is this a fuel problem? Or is there something else I should be looking for?

Thanks
Cave Dog

Apologies if this is the wrong section to post this problem. Just trying to get back on the water as soon as possible.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:51 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Closer Inspection

Upon closer inspection, I pulled all spark plugs and cleaned them (they were a little gritty). They were wet so obviously the fuel is getting to the cylinders. After doing so and trying to start the engine again, the water still sprayed a little out of the outlet hose from the heat exchanger until a suddenly explosion happened which faintly smelled of gasoline. My wife looked overboard from the cockpick where she was cranking and noted that GAS was in the water!

So does this mean the engine won't start because I have a blown head gasket? Is this a difficult thing to fix? What to do?

Thanks!
Cave Dog
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  #3   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 10-05-2010, 10:11 PM
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hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
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You seem to have a couple of things going on here. If you have water leaking from the outlet side of your exchanger that should be fixed first. As for the starting problem, if you saw gas in the water from the exhaust then you are getting fuel to the combustion chambers. The fact that you saw a spark jump to the block is not conclusive that your spark is adequate to fire the engine thru compression. Has you timing changed? Check to see if your distributor is loose. Remember to close the raw water supply seacock while cranking the engine so you don't get water back into the manifold.
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Old 10-06-2010, 12:19 AM
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I'm thinking distributor cap loose or mounted improperly, rotor issue, timing way off, something like that. You didn't say but I'm assuming it ran well before you replaced the ignition and coil.

If it ran well before the ignition work . . . . .
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Old 10-06-2010, 02:16 AM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Yowza

Thanks for the quick replies!

It seemed to me that even before I blew out the coil/electronic ignition the engine had one cylinder out of time. When I replaced the electronic ignition module, I could have switched up the spark plugs though I tried to mark them carefully with tiny scratchs.
Since I replaced the module, however, the engine would run but it seemed to be shaking more violently than an engine should. I cleaned out the exhaust system (which I thought was building up pressure) but that eventually led to this.
I will definitely check the distributor cap tomorrow and try to figure out the timing.
I have been cranking the engine with the raw water open the whole time, so if that is an issue is there a way to check the manifold to see if I've got water in it? And for future reference, I should shut off the raw water seacock if the engine doesn't start immediately?

Thanks in Advance
This forum is awesome
Cave Dog
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Old 10-06-2010, 08:47 AM
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Before you do anything it's time to check the dipstick for evidence of water incursion. Look for gray or mocha colored oil. There are excellent threads on this forum describing how to remedy the situation. And yes, keep the raw water intake closed until you get her to fire up. If there's any dry run time you can always replace the impeller, it's easy and relatively cheap.

When you replaced the ignition, did you remove the distributor? If you did, there are excellent threads on a full timing exercise. Those threads will clearly show the proper firing order too, 1-2-4-3. The key to timing is finding TDC as opposed to top of the exhaust stroke. I don't recall, do you have the Moyer manual?

I'm pretty confident this is a timing problem. If it's not, going through the timing exercise will eliminate it as the culprit which is a good thing too.

Best of luck, please keep us posted.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Old 10-06-2010, 03:06 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Yikes!

So after checking the oil, I found that it was almost all gone after adding oil only a month or so ago and not really running the engine besides trying to fix it! So now I need to find an oil leak...

Also, inside my Moyer Manual the system for correcting the timing is described for old school points style distributor and not for the electronic ignition module I'm using. Also, it talks about turning the engine by hand counterclockwise which I'm assuming you need some type of winch or handle to do? Can I order that from Moyer?

I'm attempting to fix the water from the exhaust outlet (which might need a gasket replaced) and the oil issue. I tried looking up the timing exercise you mentioned earlier but couldn't find it specifically under searches like "timing" "timing exercise" etc.

Working Hard
Cave Dog
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Old 10-06-2010, 04:48 PM
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hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
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The Moyer Marine on line catalogue lists the crank you need for working on the engine timing. As Neil stated, the key to timing this engine is knowing the difference betwen TDC and the top of the exhaust stroke. In both cases the crankshaft pin will be vertical. So how do you know? When turning the engine either with starter or crank and thumb on the spark plug hole, when you feel it pushing back, the piston is coming up to TDC. Make sure the pin is vertical and you are there.
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Old 10-06-2010, 05:01 PM
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Cave Dog-
The timing procedure in the MMI Manual is the same for points and Electronic Ignition.
The important part is to find Top Dead Center of #1 as Hanley said.
Here's a PDF of finding TDC.
Part of the procedure is to be able to turn the engine by hand.
Yes, there are a couple of hand cranking tools sold on this site.
(http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html)
Some others here have rigged their own (I'll let them chime in for that)
Don't forget to follow Neil's advice and check your distributor for proper fitting, cracks and that the plug wires are in the correct firing order.
Be sure the distributor itself is in the hole properly and is tightened down too.

I'm also inclined to believe you've gotten water backed into the engine as Neil said from non-starting cranking with the inlet water open.
Here are a couple of links to read up on resolving that...
http://www.moyermarine.com/faq/3.12.html
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...r+back+exhaust

Keep reporting back to us. You'll get her humming. We promise.
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File Type: pdf Finding Top Dead Center.pdf (9.7 KB, 782 views)
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Last edited by roadnsky; 10-06-2010 at 05:05 PM. Reason: Hanley types faster!
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  #10   IP: 76.173.186.89
Old 10-07-2010, 10:01 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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update

Down with the flu! Waiting for the crank handle in the mail to reset the timing and waiting for my health to change the oil. Will update again later when I get the timing adjusted and the oil changed.
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  #11   IP: 76.173.186.89
Old 10-13-2010, 04:08 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Update

Just an update, I'm still waiting on the crank handle, but I've changed the oil so its no longer contaminated with water and permanently fixed the exhaust flange. However, I noticed in my manual it says the exhaust pipe (the iron pipe that takes the exhaust out) should be at a 45 degree angle DOWN from the exhaust flange. I've got a ghetto rig of pipe that looks like the math character pi, which then feeds into the water trap and then out to the exhaust outlet. (so its 90 degrees straight up, goes up, then 90 degrees over, then another 90 degrees straight down to the water trap connection) Can that cause pressure build up or any other kind of problems? I'm going to replace that whole "ARCH" setup as soon as I can borrow a pipe-wrench from someone to make it more streamline.

Thanks in advance
Cave Dog
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  #12   IP: 72.71.243.195
Old 10-13-2010, 04:12 PM
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If you have your salt water pump connected to the PTO shaft at the front
of the engine you can turn it over by grabbing the belt. I have done this
successfully.

Regards

Art
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  #13   IP: 67.187.234.93
Old 10-15-2010, 02:33 PM
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danejyhrr danejyhrr is offline
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Does your system look like the attached picture? That's what it sounded like to me, from your explanation. Just a check, is the exhaust valve open?

If the timing is completely off, One might expect the motor to vibrate significantly when it actually does fire. Definitely look into that, and make sure all the wires lead right. Timing's not hard to do, just get out the MM manual or find a forum and go for it. Take your time and pay close attention to the details, tracing every wire out.

You're crank's probably there now, but in a pinch I've had success using channel locks or vice-grips, even a socket wrench once. Hope you're feeling better and good luck!
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Old 10-15-2010, 05:49 PM
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Hi Cave Dog.
Your hot exhaust pipe sounds about right. I had to replace mine a couple of weeks ago and what came off is exactly how I put it back. You described about the same setup. The wet injection from the exhaust manifold is injected on the down side before you head to the rubber hose. I did make up and weld the wet injection port to join in on a 45 degree angle but the one I took off was on the 90 degree...both work the same. I have a C&C 30.

Hope this helps you out.
Mo
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Old 10-15-2010, 06:16 PM
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Hi again there Cave Dog.

The above posted contibutors have you covered for the not starting. A compression test on all cylinders may help you also once you have rececked your work on the ignition system - rotor, cap, module, wires, firing order, plugs.

Have a good weekend and hope you get it sorted out.

Best
mo
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Old 10-16-2010, 05:39 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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Timing Adjustment DISASTER

So I'm over the flu now and I've got the crank-handle, but as I try to put the crank handle ONTO the engine, it doesn't seem to fit "just right". So being the Cave Dog I am, I hammer it down to the pin and rotate counterclockwise, but now the crank-handle won't come off. I'm looking for a crowbar or something to leverage it off because it is impossibly stuck.

Some other questions about the timing procedure that aren't covered in the manual. I've disconnected the spark plug leads from the distributor cap. Now I'm sure once I find TDC for the 1. spark plug, the breaker plate and the rotor should be pointing away from the block. So from that position (correct me if I'm wrong) it should be spark plug 1 (above the rotor/break plate) and then the rest of the plugs going clockwise up to 4?

Then after I've done this, I need to get a 12 volt timing light (is this just a regular bulb with leads), hold it across the coil terminals and rotate the distributor until the lights go off, then re-tighten the distributor?

... and as far as the exhaust flange, DANE that drawing was 100% correct. That's what my set up looks like. I wasn't sure if that caused excess pressure in the exhaust system because my manual says a 45 degree downward angle should be coming out of the exhaust flange.

ANYWAYS, waiting for a LARGE Crowbar or some miracle to get this stupid crank-handle off and then I guess file down the area its supposed to attach to and try the timing procedure again.

THANKS for all the help guys!
Cave Dog
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:38 PM
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Whatever you do - dont start the motor with the crank handle stuck on crankshaft!

Be very careful trying to lever the handle off with a crowbar - you will more than likely snap off the end of the crank.

Let's get back to basics:

1.) what year motor do you have?

2.) what electronic ignition system did you buy/install?

3.) do you have any mechanical experience/aptitude with engines?

Cheers!
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Old 10-17-2010, 12:51 PM
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What probably happened is that you drove the crank handle over the pin and bent it back. As you pull make sure you have equal pressure on both sides for a straight pull. The pin is likely already destroyed but is cheap and available anywhere. 67's warning about breaking the crank is well taken.
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Old 10-17-2010, 04:30 PM
Cave_Dog Cave_Dog is offline
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hey guys

I'm not entirely sure what YEAR atomic 4 it is because I bought the boat from someone else. I've been working on the engine for almost a year now, whenever I have money to put into it. It didn't break the pin, there was just a bit of a deformity in the metal of the crankshaft at the tip (like a bump) that the crank-handle wouldn't slide over, so I tapped it with a hammer until it went down and slid over the pin. The electronic ignition system I have is the electronic ignition module (no points), with a typical coil @ 3.0 ohms.

Nothing is broken, I just need to figure out a way to leverage the crank-handle off and file down the bump on the crankshaft. Then I'll go about trying to reset the timing again. My manual doesn't really clearly explain the timing procedure, so I was kind of hoping for a better explanation of how to set the timing once I've found TDC.

Thanks
Cave Dog
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:03 AM
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Cave Dog..one comment from your recent post, the firing order is 1 - 2 - 4 - 3..so when you put the plug wires on you need to go in the firing order. (yes, your general presumptions about the #1 location is correct & direction is clockwise)

For TDC, what I did was remove the #1 spark plug and put my thumb over the hole..when the crank is coming around on its way (edit - counterclockwise from the front) to make the roll pin on the crankshaft vertical and the rotor is pointing away from the motor, you should feel the compression against your thumb on the plug hole...when the roll pin is vertical that point is TDC.

Back when rigspelt and I were newbies a couple of years ago we had EXTENSIVE discussion trying to help each other figure this out, so feel free to search the forum for additional discussions!
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Last edited by sastanley; 10-19-2010 at 10:57 PM. Reason: see post #21 thanks Neil!!!!
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Old 10-19-2010, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Cave Dog..one comment from your recent post, the firing order is 1 - 2 - 4 - 3..so when you put the plug wires on you need to go in the firing order. (yes, your general presumptions about the #1 location is correct & direction is counterclockwise)
Oopsie, clockwise!
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Old 10-19-2010, 10:55 PM
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Lightbulb

:smack head:

Thanks Neil..I fixed the original post as well. I must have been going insane at work or falling asleep at my desk or something!!
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