Shaft removal, cutless, stern tube replacement

[CalebD]

As my signature says our T27 is now 43 years young and as such many of it's systems are either 43 years old or slightly younger if replaced by some PO. The only maintenance we did with our A4 drive train was to replace the stuffing box packing.
We have noticed a noise seemingly coming from the cutless bearing when underway; a kind of steady drone and vibration that can be as loud as the noise of the running engine so a cutless bearing job has been in our future for a while. The future is now and we are in the midst of a drive train tear down and replacement job, and to put it nicely this job seems like a real chore.
Undoing the press fit between the shaft and the flange (in situ) is a real PITA. We are using the "press out" method which entails putting a small pusher (socket wrench cup) between the two flanges and tightening them up to push the shaft out. This work is extremely tedious with the engine access we have to this area of the engine so I am thinking about improving access which should make it less painful. Am I missing something here? Is there an easier way to separate the shaft and flange?
(I promise to take some pictures of this job and post them to document)

Once we got the shaft flange unbolted from the transmission output flange we were able to pull the shaft out (sternwise) about the length of the cutless bearing. The shaft bound up tightly after about 4" of movement and we could see that the shaft was actually slightly gouged at the bearing. You can feel where the shaft is worn down and see it. So it seems we need a new shaft after perhaps 43 years of usage. Not too shabby but not really anticipated either, although I should have expected as much as this bearing seemed to make some noise when we got her about 8 years ago.

Since we need a new 1" bronze shaft anyway is there any reason for not to cut the old one with a Sawzall to facilitate removal? The only reasons I can think of is the gas tank right above this area and the small copper piping is a gas line or gas tank vent line. I'd consider pulling as much shaft out of the transom and cutting the exposed portion off once the prop and flange are off.

The old shaft log (Buck Algonquin hose) on our boat has always scared the crap out of me but I've had my run of luck with this equipment and it will be replaced as well. When I poked around at the aft most hose clamp on our shaft log it was so rusted it just came apart.
Hope I can re-size this 'Before' picture but you might want to hide the kids 'cause this is not too pretty.

[Bigeye]

Flip the propeller shaft?

Seems a waste to throw away (cash in?) that bronze shaft. Might it be possible to flip the shaft around so that the worn areas are not at the cutlass bearing or stern tube? I have never heard of doing this but perhaps it's possible.

Bigeye

[ndutton]

Seems a waste to throw away (cash in?) that bronze shaft. Might it be possible to flip the shaft around so that the worn areas are not at the cutlass bearing or stern tube? I have never heard of doing this but perhaps it's possible.

Nope, not possible. The shaft is tapered at the outboard end, straight at the inboard end.

Caleb,
Save the grief and cut the shaft. The shaft looks like bronze and should therefore cut easily. Use the pieces to measure for the new shaft. Man, those hose clamps are a fright and there should be twice as many. Lady luck has been on your side for some time.

Any half decent auto shop can press the stump out of the coupler for probably a six pack. Well, maybe a six pack of import.

[CalebD]

Caleb,
Save the grief and cut the shaft. The shaft looks like bronze and should therefore cut easily. Use the pieces to measure for the new shaft. Man, those hose clamps are a fright and there should be twice as many. Lady luck has been on your side for some time.

Any half decent auto shop can press the stump out of the coupler for probably a six pack. Well, maybe a six pack of import.

Bigeye,
Because of the threading and taper on the outboard end of the shaft it cannot be reversed. I also wondered about that.

Neil,
Yes, I've been quite lucky for long enough on this one.
Good idea on the nearby auto shop though. There is one within walking distance from our boat and it is the right place except for the one eyed dog sleeping somewhere on the property.
Thanks for the encouragement too. I need it as I'm finding this to be a very discouraging job to do. I'm considering tearing out the original 'ice box' that is tabbed into the deck above the port side after berth, for better overall engine access; something I have been contemplating for a while.
Imported beer? You mean something like Labatt's Blue?
I'm kind of a fan of Sierra Nevada ales myself.

[ndutton]

Thanks for the encouragement too. I need it as I'm finding this to be a very discouraging job to do.

Keep your eye on the prize. Imagine what you'll have when you're done. You are way better off than Shawn was in his epic Indigo thread and his came out great.

Did I understand you were replacing everything? Shaft, bearing, stuffing box and hose?

[CalebD]

Keep your eye on the prize. Imagine what you'll have when you're done. You are way better off than Shawn was in his epic Indigo thread and his came out great.

Did I understand you were replacing everything? Shaft, bearing, stuffing box and hose?

Yes. I have a replacement cutless bearing, new packing material and Buck Algonquin hose in hand for that purpose. Now I just need to remove the old shaft, fit all the new gear into place and re-fit the damn thing once the planets re-align.
Hoping to re-use old stuffing box, prop and flange if prop shop says they pass muster. I was considering the Indigo 3 blade prop for our boat but my racing partner (type A) likes to win so that will be a tough sell. I'm ok with the 12" x 8" 2 blade prop we have, if it is kept clean; it is old but not quite dead, yet.
I have had a lot of time to think about this job and have accumulated most of the major parts I think I need. The press fitting stuff goes so slowly with a fair amount of effort. Maybe I need to start drinking V8 or eating spinach like Popeye to keep my strength up.
To keep my spirits up I always tell myself: "This %*^#ing bottom will never sand it's self" and by extension the drive shaft wont either. If you want it done right you're going to have to do most or all of it yourself.

I'll look up Shawn's Indigo thread, thanks for that.

I hope to take some more pics tomorrow of the shaft/flange removal process after I pick up more bolts and washers to help with undoing the compression fittings.

Thanks again.

[ndutton]

I hope to take some more pics tomorrow of the shaft/flange removal process after I pick up more bolts and washers to help with undoing the compression fittings.

If this means you are still trying to press out the shaft yourself, know that at some point you risk bending the output flange. Shawn's Indigo thread has a good picture of a destroyed flange from the identical operation.

That's why cutting the shaft is much more friendly to the parts.

Good luck, looking forward to your success report.

[Marty Levenson]

Hull #342

Hay CalebD,

Good luck with that job - they do eventually get done!

As for the ice-box, go for it: that's one of the best moves we ever made. Tore it out in two pieces and glassed up the leaking outside access hatch. Installed an Engel AC/DC electric fridge in the forward end of the quarterberth. Semi-permanently installed but can remove it and put it on the sole if we need that extra berth. It has been fantastic! Also built a big cupboard ("food pantry") where the icebox was. Would never go back to buying ice and melting it with the muffler.

Keep at it,
Marty

[tartansailboat]

Neil's warning about bending the output flange on the transmission is well founded. You will need to purchase long grade 8 bolts (McMasterCarr) and you run the risk of bending that flange if you need to apply too much pressure to push out the shaft. A safer approach is to either cut the shaft or purchase Tool 06-135 from Moyer with long grade 8 bolts. That tool is much thicker than the output flange and wont deflect. The consider a split coupling from Moyer for replacement.

[msmith10]

I'm undertaking a similar job now. I developed some shaft wobble last summer. My alignment measured between the output and shaft flanges is less than .003, so the problem must be elsewhere (I suspect shaft flange not true). In the meantime, I think the shaft log rubber tube was probably replaced last time yours was, Caleb, so I'm starting from scratch. Taking the prop shaft and flange to a local shop that specializes in this work. The prop shaft flange is too loose a fit on the shaft which may be a result of my removal work (an hour of tapping concentrically around the flange with a plastic mallet to slide it off) so I may end up with a new shaft and flange. In the meantime I'll replace the rubber tube (Buck-Algonquin) and clean up my stuffing box. Fortunately, in fresh water I don't get the corrosion you guys get.

[sailhog]

I had the yard install the cutlass bearing on my C-30. If I remember correctly, the bearing was $50 and labor $75. The people there have done it a thousand times, and I really felt like it was the deal of the century....

Good luck with the project. I have a feeling I'll be doing the same in a couple of years...

[CalebD]

Sawzall rules!!!

Marty,
I borrowed a sawzall to cut the shaft and then was licking my lips as I sized up the built in ice box thinking I'd just do it there and then. Are there any pics of your 'ice box modification' on the T27Owners group? I'd love to see some pics and get some ideas for a fairly easy, orderly removal of the ice box. Our boats were likely similarly built, my hull being #328 and yours #342.
Thanks for the encouragement.

Hay CalebD,

Good luck with that job - they do eventually get done!

As for the ice-box, go for it: that's one of the best moves we ever made. Tore it out in two pieces and glassed up the leaking outside access hatch. Installed an Engel AC/DC electric fridge in the forward end of the quarterberth. Semi-permanently installed but can remove it and put it on the sole if we need that extra berth. It has been fantastic! Also built a big cupboard ("food pantry") where the icebox was. Would never go back to buying ice and melting it with the muffler.

Keep at it,
Marty

[CalebD]

Sawzall rules again!!

Neil and everyone,
I did not have time to re-read Shaun's rather long thread but I did take Neil's advice to heart. I borrowed a Sawzall from a friend and headed off to the boat and took a few pics before contemplating cutting the 1" bronze shaft right under the gas tank with limited space.
The Sawzall was useful for eliminating the remaining hose clamp on the shaft log hose and then the stuffing box was liberated. I climbed into the starboard cockpit locker to get good access to where I wanted to cut. Not much clearance but the bronze of the prop shaft is no match for a metal Sawzall blade and in about 10 minutes it was cut and extracted in two pieces from the boat. Wee-haw!
Neil's post and others made me check on the prices for the new couplings. Hmm. I do like the 2 piece shaft coupling for $175 but I'd still like to see if we did not destroy the old one. We had only pushed the shaft about 1" out of the flange using the torturous compression method. Hopefully the output coupling did not suffer too badly either but we shall see. The next time I want to do this will be: not anytime soon, so I'd rather replace anything that is questionable now then have to go back in and do it again.

Thank you Neil for your wise advice. I just hope we didn't ruin more then we accomplished by trying to force out the compression fittings.

If this means you are still trying to press out the shaft yourself, know that at some point you risk bending the output flange. Shawn's Indigo thread has a good picture of a destroyed flange from the identical operation.

That's why cutting the shaft is much more friendly to the parts.

Good luck, looking forward to your success report.

First shot is of the shaft log with the aft hose clamp crumbled into pieces of rust after prying with a screwdriver:

Next shot shows the shaft coupling and output coupling separated:

[CalebD]

Next shot is post Sawzall meeting shaft:
Following shot is the stuffing box on work bench showing how well the Gore GFO packing lasted these last 8 years:

[CalebD]

Next shot is of the expensive packing material removing tool I used:
The following shot shows that I got to the bottom of it. Now I know why I could not get many rings of new packing material in there: