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  #1   IP: 108.60.227.27
Old 04-19-2014, 04:55 PM
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Bypass Starter Solenoid

Hey all, So I finally got my starter rebuilt here in Eeuthera. It was a complete rebuild, armiture, coils, brushes, bendix, etc. So it should be brandy new right? Mechanic said he tested it and the solenoid. All work fine. Unfortunately, I still cant get the engine to start. Before I had a click from the solenoid but not action at the starter. Now I dont even get a click.

I checked all the wiring. I have key ignition. I am getting 12.7V at the coil and 12.7v at the distribution block leading to the solenoid. But on the solenoid itself, I am only getting 4.25V. Is the solenoid bad all of the sudden?

Is there a way to bypass it? I've tried jumping it across the solenoid posts, which yields nothing.

Everything is closed here until Tuesday, but I'd love to leave tomorrow and pick up a new solenoid in the next town. Any thoughts?
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Old 04-19-2014, 04:58 PM
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Also...

Solenoid + to the Block - yields 12.7. It has to be the solenoid right? I've tried whacking it. nothing. How to I bypass. I know I've heard someone mention a way.
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Old 04-19-2014, 06:12 PM
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Update

To clarify whats going on, I have an early model starter with a 4 post solenoid. Two large posts and two small in between. One large post mounts to the starter frame/bracket. The other large post is the BAT and IGN +. The two small posts in between are NEG. One gets wired to the block (at the starter mounting bolt) The other gets wired to the Ignition NEG post on the key switch.

I am getting 12V from Solenoid + to the grounded NEG terminal. But only 6V from the terminal connected to the ignition switch. Is the switch bad? When I turn the switch to ON, My instrument panel shows 12.7V. But I dont get a click when I try to start. If I jump it with a screw driver, I get a spark, but nothing else.

I tried a lead directly from the battery NEG to the IGN NEG post on the solenoid. When I turn the key, I can see the power draw in the instrument panel but nothing at the solenoid. When I try to jump it, I get spark, but nothing else.

This has to be the solenoid right? The wires are all tight, new and clean.

Thanks for the help!
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Last edited by sailingchance; 04-19-2014 at 07:21 PM. Reason: update
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Old 04-19-2014, 08:22 PM
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Couple of things; the two small terminals are not to be grounded. One runs from the ignition switch momentary for the starter; the other is not used except as an override - ignore it for now. The terminal on the ignition switch might have an "S" on it.
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Old 04-19-2014, 09:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Couple of things; the two small terminals are not to be grounded. One runs from the ignition switch momentary for the starter; the other is not used except as an override - ignore it for now. The terminal on the ignition switch might have an "S" on it.
I'm confused. This is how I had it wired before and it worked perfect. So the NEG (yellow wire from the ignition key switch) goes to one of the small terminals. I tried it that way, I only get 6V or less at that terminal. I removed the wire from the starter mounting bolt to the second small terminal and I have the same result. Nothing.
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Old 04-19-2014, 10:41 PM
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Jason,
Check out this thread. It has several Atomic 4 wiring diagrams. I offer it only because you're referring to a yellow wire from the keyswitch to the solenoid as a NEG and it isn't. There is NO negative wire going to any starter terminal and there is NO negative wire attached to the keyswitch.

While you're testing for voltages be sure you're reading to a good ground. The only good ground is the engine block and the tester's point of connection may be compromised by paint or rust.

Double check the ground terminations from the battery to the engine too. They're just as important as the positive wiring.
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Old 04-19-2014, 11:01 PM
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Old 04-20-2014, 07:58 AM
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Long story short. I started my early A-4 noticed a problem and shut her down. Thrashed around in the engine compartment fixing a leak. When I tried to restart, nothing. Checked voltage at several places with my multimeter. I was getting reading, some normal some not. Worked thru several connections with no improvement. Then I saw it. In my thrashing I had pulled the main ground wire out of its clip on the engine. Bingo instant start.
SC. Did you ever receive my PM back in March about the loan of a starter?
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marian Claire View Post
Long story short. I started my early A-4 noticed a problem and shut her down. Thrashed around in the engine compartment fixing a leak. When I tried to restart, nothing. Checked voltage at several places with my multimeter. I was getting reading, some normal some not. Worked thru several connections with no improvement. Then I saw it. In my thrashing I had pulled the main ground wire out of its clip on the engine. Bingo instant start.
SC. Did you ever receive my PM back in March about the loan of a starter?
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Marian, yes thank you. I thought I replied. Forgive me if I did not. It would have been just as time effective to have the parts shipped in. But I sincerely appreciate the offer. Truly. I have checked all the wiring. Everything is connected. So I am still stuck.

Hanley, You are right. I did not know that. In my fixology over proper wire coloring, I just ASSUMED that the yellow wire was a negative and not a momentary positive. (I am still learning I guess).

That being said, Terminal to terminal it is wired correctly (I just thought it was a negative). I DID however try to jump it and attached a wire to that post from the NEG side of the battery to do so. I wonder if that killed the solenoid. If it was the switch before (which I think it could have been, I think my failed understanding and hectic troubleshooting might have killed my solenoid. Is that possible?

Here is how I have it wired (with the correct understanding).

Large Post + : Pos from Battery, BAT(+) from ignition switch
Small Post 1 : Wired to the the starter mounting bolt - serves as a NEG
Small Post 2 : + Yellow wire from ignition switch (the momentary +)
Large Post 2: Mounted to the Starter Frame Bracket. Serves as a negative.

This should be correct. I should be able to jump it with a screw driver simply wired like this, right? When I do, all I get is a spark. When I check for current, I am checking against the block and am ready 12.7V now.

Dont know what else to try.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:37 AM
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Try it this way: large post #1 to starter motor, large post #2 to battery+, small post #1 to keyswitch "S", leave small post #2 empty. If there is another wire on large post #2 it is the + feed to the keyswitch terminal "B". Think of the solenoid as nothing more than a momentary relay switch between the battery and the starter. Edit: Has anyone got that early starter wiring diagram handy?

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 04-20-2014 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:47 AM
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Quote:
I DID however try to jump it and attached a wire to that post from the NEG side of the battery to do so. I wonder if that killed the solenoid.
Entirely possible but instead of wondering we can find out for sure. You can test the solenoid coil winding by measuring resistance between the small 'S' post and the solenoid case ground. It should read around 1.2Ω. Anything substantially higher or lower indicates damage.

Quote:
Large Post 2: Mounted to the Starter Frame Bracket. Serves as a negative.
Nope, negatory. If you're talking about the large post directly below 'Large Post 1' where the battery cable connects, 'Large Post 2' is attached to a solid strap that enters the starter casing and is insulated as it passes through the casing. It delivers the POSITIVE power to the starter windings through the solenoid.

Stated here in a separate paragraph and in caps for emphasis:
THERE IS NO GROUND ANYWHERE AT THE STARTER OR THE SOLENOID OTHER THAN THE MOUNT TO THE FLYWHEEL HOUSING.
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Old 04-20-2014, 10:59 AM
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OKay, now I am confused

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Entirely possible but instead of wondering we can find out for sure. You can test the solenoid coil winding by measuring resistance between the small 'S' post and the solenoid case ground. It should read around 1.2Ω. Anything substantially higher or lower indicates damage.

Nope, negatory. If you're talking about the large post directly below 'Large Post 1' where the battery cable connects, 'Large Post 2' is attached to a solid strap that enters the starter casing and is insulated as it passes through the casing. It delivers the POSITIVE power to the starter windings through the solenoid.

Stated here in a separate paragraph and in caps for emphasis:
THERE IS NO GROUND ANYWHERE AT THE STARTER OR THE SOLENOID OTHER THAN THE MOUNT TO THE FLYWHEEL HOUSING.
No ground/NEG? How is that possible? If I were to take the starter off and hook it up to a battery, Wouldnt one large post attach to BAT + and one large Post (the one mounted to the frame on the starter) attach to the BAT -?
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingchance View Post
No ground/NEG? How is that possible? If I were to take the starter off and hook it up to a battery, Wouldnt one large post attach to BAT + and one large Post (the one mounted to the frame on the starter) attach to the BAT -?
The body of the starter is the ground to the engine block which is connected to batt (-). If you were to take the starter off the engine and try to test it on a bench you would have to run a big jumper from the starter body to to the negative side of the battery. The solenoid only conducts the circuit from batt + to the starter itself momentarily when one of the small terminals is energized from the key switch (or jumped from any where in the batt+ circuit).
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:12 AM
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Exclamation Neil? Help!

wiring diagram!!
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
wiring diagram!!
Post #6, already provided several, True Grit John too.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Post #6, already provided several, True Grit John too.
Nein, both diagrams on that thread are for late systems. We need the early.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:42 AM
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Wiring Diagram

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Post #6, already provided several, True Grit John too.
I have several and It is wired up according to the diagrams. I guess it's just my understanding of what is actually happening that is flawed.

Hanley, I am going to try it your way. But here is an actual picture so we don't get our perverbial wires crossed - which i seem to have a talent for This is how I have it wired now. With your instructions I am simply removing the wire attached to "Small Post #1" Correct?

(PS - in the photo, the BAT+ and the "B" from IGN are not hooked up, but I did label them. Sorry if there is confusion)

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/pi...pictureid=1501
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Last edited by sailingchance; 04-20-2014 at 11:43 AM. Reason: picture
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Nein, both diagrams on that thread are for late systems. We need the early.
That may be the issue with my attempts at helping. Why did I think this was a late model? I re-read every post in the thread and did not see where it was identified as an early model - or a late model for that matter.

Either way the wiring's the same except for a short but beefy wire from the load side of the solenoid to the starter instead of the solid strap I mentioned previously..
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
That may be the issue with my attempts at helping. Why did I think this was a late model? I re-read every post in the thread and did not see where it was identified as an early model - or a late model for that matter.

Either way the wiring's the same except for a short but beefy wire from the load side of the solenoid to the starter instead of the solid strap I mentioned previously..
Neil, my third post, where I clarify my earilier bumbling word states it is an early model. Sorry for the confusion however. I posted a picture above.

Hanley, I tried it the way you described, with no luck....

Thanks again for all your help. It really means alot.
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Last edited by sailingchance; 04-20-2014 at 11:57 AM.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:59 AM
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Talking Now we got a picture!

Jason - Something very suspicious here; the big red wire you have labeled "alt" seems out of place. I think it belongs on big post #1. You show a smaller (possibly a #10) red wire hanging loose. I suspect it belongs on alt+. You show a black wire from small post #1 to ground - get rid of it. Edit: One of the big posts on the solenoid should be connected to a big post on the starter itself - that is the only wire that should be on that terminal. The other big post, you show it as #1 should be receiving the juice from batt+. The alt+ should also be on this terminal. Your connection from igntion switch looks correct.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 04-20-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
Jason - Something very suspicious here; the big red wire you have labeled "alt" seems out of place. I think it belongs on big post #1. You show a smaller (possibly a #10) red wire hanging loose. I suspect it belongs on alt+. You show a black wire from small post #1 to ground - get rid of it.
Hanley, the large red wire labeled "ALT" is going to the back of the alternator (from the battery). The smaller RED wire hanging loose is the "B" from IGN which is attached to Large Post #1 (just not in the pic). Also attached to large post #1 is the + from the starter battery)

I removed the ground wire as you suggested. I have no change.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingchance View Post
I removed the ground wire as you suggested. I have no change.
Have you performed the resistance test on the solenoid as described in post #11? It's possible but not yet confirmed the new solenoid is toast and will not work even with correct wiring.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:16 PM
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Maybe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Have you performed the resistance test on the solenoid as described in post #11? It's possible but not yet confirmed the new solenoid is toast and will not work even with correct wiring.
Neil, I think I did (by "think" I mean I got inconclusive results). Using the photo I provided, I check the resistance between Small Post #2 and the solenoid casing, and couldn't get the voltmeter to settle on a number. It bounced around. It just kept rising. It could also be my meter. I dont know.
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Last edited by sailingchance; 04-20-2014 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:27 PM
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If my solenoid is bad....

I have an ideal windlass with a large starter motor on it. It's roughly the same size as my engine's starter motor, maybe a little bigger.

It has the same TYPE of solenoid on it. 4 posts. There's no markings on it but it looks about the same. A little stockier around but a little shorter too.

If my solenoid is in fact dead, which I suspect it is, can I try this solenoid? Or would that screw something up?
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Old 04-20-2014, 12:30 PM
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For the best chance of a reliable result the wires from the small post(s) should be removed so you're reading only the solenoid and not whatever might be going on with the attached circuitry. The tester should be set on Ohms, low scale. You're hoping for a low reading, like 1~2Ω. This also answers the ign on or off question. Ign off.

When this is done there should be five wires only attached to the solenoid on three terminals:
Large post 1 = battery cable, #10 red to the ign switch B terminal (supply) and alternator output wire
Large post 2 = beefy cable to the starter input
Small post 'S' = smallish (#10?) yellow wire from the ign switch S terminal (start). This wire is white on many harnesses but we'll go with your description of your particular setup.

edit:
The windlass solenoid should be able to serve as a get-home replacement. You may want to compare the previously suggested resistance readings from each solenoid. They should be in the same ballpark.

edit 2:
I'd like a voltage reading between the yellow wire (disconnected from the solenoid) to ground with the key switch in the 'start' position. Also, during all this testing, please remove the wire from the small coil '+' post. It will be reconnected after the starter comes to life.
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Last edited by ndutton; 04-20-2014 at 12:38 PM.
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