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  #1   IP: 70.175.134.27
Old 01-08-2022, 02:06 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Cool Greetings from Long Beach

Just a quick note to introduce myself: Iím Jim and have been accessing valuable information from this site for the 15 years Iíve owned our Ranger 33 (1972 with late model A-4) out of Shoreline Marina, Long Beach, CA. We mostly sail in and out of our slip as we face into the predominant westerly winds and we are able to beam reach in and out under main on most days. I do run the engine in the slip every week and occasionally get caught out with no wind when we fire up the A-4 so itís nice to have the little beast functioning properly. Appreciate the help from this group as well as Ken at Moyer Marine to keep us operational. Thank you!

Although Iím not much of a mechanic I have managed over the years to rebuild the carburetor, install remote oil filter, change to electronic ignition, upgraded to studs on the water jacket, installed thermostat bypass kit, installed new water pump and recently performed an acid flush for the first time since the motor was rebuilt 7 years ago and installed the MMI rewiring kit and new gauges.

Full disclosure, also managed to blow up a perfectly good pair of batteries (wasnít present but whitenesses the aftermath of what I suspect was 110VAC into the bat bank looks like- it was a giant mess) so replaced my ancient battery charger with a Sterling 30A charger.

So, in an effort to not sink the boat, thought Iíd make this post and directly communicate with the group.

Current Issues:
- Alternator (original 35 amp Motorola) seems to be charging batteries at +16 volts. Guessing the external regulator not functioning and not sure if this is something I should tackle myself, take to a shop or consider 55 amp and 100 amp upgrade from MMIÖ?

- new ISSPRO volt meter reading under 13 so I was surprised when I took a reading on the battery bank that showed +16Ö?

- ongoing reversing gear issues- itís either VERY difficult to shift or the next cog clockwise eventually slips out of gear when running at 2000 rpm. Am I missing another adjustment point that might help dial this in?

- hard start, dies at low idle- the electronic ignition helped, as did the carb rebuild, but I suspect fuel issues despite the rancor filter and polishing filter. Working through this one, Iíll report back.

Thatís it for now!

Thanks,
Jim
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Old 01-08-2022, 04:41 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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A quick thought R\E the hard start\no idle issue.
How long has it been since you serviced the advance (under the distributor breaker plate) and checked the timing?

Try shifing into and out of gear by hand with the shift cable disconnected an see if the issues change. You might need a adjustment of the cable or inside the transmission.

ex TRUE GRIT
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Old 01-08-2022, 05:17 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Hi John,

Not sure if I understand how to service the advance. I had the breaker plate off 2 years ago to make sure the springs we operating easily. Iíll check into servicing the advance. Thanks.

Just set timing this week (found TDC, made sure rotor facing to 9 oíclock, turned breaker plate tab until under rotor arm and started. Barely got it started and put in gear and up to cruising rpm and fine tuned until rpms maxed out. Had to turn almost 1/4 turnÖ seems like I messed up here somewhere.

I disconnected shift linkage from shift lever and was still very difficult to shift by hand.

Thanks,
Jim
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Old 01-09-2022, 10:42 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Jim, servicing the centrifugal advance is nothing more than claening and/or lubing the "spring" assembly so it moves freely. It can get stuck causing all sorts of performance issues. When giving the rotor a twist it should spring back smoothly.

At 16v the alternator is KILLING your batteries. There are shops in Long Beach that can easily check and fix your alternator. If you decide to go to a bigger alt REMEMBER the A-4 barely turns fast enough to charge and get rid of the heat it develops. The fan on the alt needs to spin far faster so getting the extra amps from a larger alt just adds to the heat. Unless your vessel needs the more amps stick with the 35amp.

When trying to shift by hand were you moving the shift lever at the trans? For most all new A-4 owners the trans is a bit of an enigma. It takes far more pressure to get the trans in forward and "locked in with the detent" than one would think AND unless it is locked in it will slip at a higher throttle settings. Remember to that there is nothing but "YOUR HAND" on the shifter that holds the trans in reverse!!!

As far as idle, what RPM is it idling and how many turns do you have the AIR adjusting screw off the seat? Also when rebuilding did you make sure the internal sealing part of the gasket on the emulsion well is sealing properly. Any leak here can raise havoc with the idle! Always use a new gasket!!!

Dave Neptune
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Old 01-09-2022, 12:42 PM
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Ankle bone connected to the leg bone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
At 16v the alternator is KILLING your batteries. There are shops in Long Beach that can easily check and fix your alternator. If you decide to go to a bigger alt REMEMBER the A-4 barely turns fast enough to charge and get rid of the heat it develops. The fan on the alt needs to spin far faster so getting the extra amps from a larger alt just adds to the heat. Unless your vessel needs the more amps stick with the 35amp.
I'd like to offer a different perspective
The heat generated in the alternator is directly related to the amperage it's producing. The amperage it's producing is directly related to the battery bank's state of charge (SOC). The greater the battery bank is discharged, the greater the amperage output produced by the alternator. The converse is true also, shallow discharging results in lower charge amps.

If you discharge your battery bank to a point where the SOC and regulator determine a 20 amp charge current is appropriate, it does not matter what size alternator you have. A 105A alternator will put out 20A the same as a 35A alternator will with the associated heat being equal as well.

Personally I prefer the larger alternator even though I don't discharge my banks deeply before recharging. If the battery SOC is such that a 35A charge is initially called for, my 105A alternator will be cruising along at a third of its maximum capacity whereas a 35A alternator will be maxxed out at its full rated capacity. Further, the 105A alternator is physically bigger and therefore so is its cooling fan. If the heat produced at 35A is roughly equal between the large and small alternators, they're both turning the same RPM and the 105A has a bigger fan . . . . . see where I'm headed?

There's an old rule of thumb regarding alternator size on boats. How well it applies I can't say but it's been around for several decades. Alternator size in amps should roughly equal ľ the combined amp-hours of the battery banks. I followed this rule when refitting my boat 17 years* ago. I have four GR31 house batteries (105A-H each) and one GR24 engine starter battery (65A) for a total of 485A-H, a quarter of that is 121 amps. My alternator is 105A. If I discount the engine starter I'm exactly at the ľ rule.

Most importantly however is Dave's comment about 16V. Your batteries are getting murdered at that voltage. Please take it seriously and don't dally around getting the recommended testing done.

*edited for typo. I mis-typed "tears" rather than years but in a Freudian way it could have remained.
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Last edited by ndutton; 01-09-2022 at 06:14 PM.
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Old 01-09-2022, 01:03 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Hi Dave,

Thanks for the note. Based on the above I think my advance is fine. Noted on alternator info. I thought the +16 was no bueno. Iíll make sure the carb is sealed properly with new gasket and give it a general clean. Was shifting by hand with the linkage off and it was very difficult to shift but getting close here with all the great info on this site. Thanks again, Jim
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Old 01-09-2022, 01:14 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Hi Neal,

Ok thanks, great info. Iím on it and will get the alternator sorted.
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Old 01-09-2022, 01:19 PM
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Jim, I got caught up in the alternator discussion and for got to mention I'm not comfortable with your timing description:
Quote:
Just set timing this week (found TDC, made sure rotor facing to 9 oíclock, turned breaker plate tab until under rotor arm and started
What's missing is a mention of the rotor pointing to the distributor cap post for #1 plug wire when at #1 TDC. The plug for that cylinder must fire at TDC. Also, how sure are you that TDC was on the compression stroke and not the exhaust stroke? I'm amazed how often this happens.
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Old 01-09-2022, 02:03 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Hi Neal,

To answer your question: not very sure at all that the pressure I felt was actually the #1 piston arriving at TDC or pressure from the valve stroke. Iíll revisit this and confirm with a flashlight per Doní video. Then will take off the disto cap and confirm that rotor arm is pointing away from block at 90 degrees. Then I should rotate the distributor until breaker plate tab aligns under rotor arm. Then start, warm up engine, put in gear and throttle up to cruising speed and advance to find sweet spot and back off slightly from there. Does this sound right?

Also, there isnít an alignment pin on the end of my crank shaft but there is a 1/4 inch hole in the flywheel about 2 inches in from the teeth which seemed to line up 1/4 turn from 12 oíclock when I felt what I thought was the #1 compression stroke. So I turned flywheel another quarter turn and used that hole to get to TDC. Iím getting above my pay grade here

Thanks for the help,
Jim
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Old 01-09-2022, 03:14 PM
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I haven't seen the Moyer timing video so I may be learning something here.
Quote:
Then will take off the disto cap and confirm that rotor arm is pointing away from block at 90 degrees
In a pure timing sense, where the rotor arm points relative to the engine has no bearing on timing. The position convention you mention has to do with alternator belt clearance re: the distributor cap. The only way your description has merit is if the #1 spark plug wire is connected to the distributor cap post that is ALSO 90į from the block. Remember: spark to #1 must be at TDC for #1.
Quote:
Then I should rotate the distributor until breaker plate tab aligns under rotor arm.
Same thing, from a pure timing sense it doesn't matter as long as spark to #1 is at #1 TDC. Wire positions on the distributor cap are completely dependent on that. Get #1 right then connect the wires in the proper order clockwise around the cap (1-2-4-3).

We do have a convention on this forum where we prefer the #1 spark plug wire attached to the dist cap post you describe but it means nothing unless the rotor is pointing there too at #1 TDC.

TDC-rotor-cap-plug wire, all must coincide for #1 cylinder for proper timing. THAT'S what matters.
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Old 01-09-2022, 06:20 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Ok so step #1 is to confirm Iím getting the correct #1 TDC. Step #2 is to make sure rotor arm points away from block (if not, take distributor out of gear and turn and re engage at correct point. Step #3 (to your point) make sure #1 plug lead aligns with rotor arm direction.

Thanks Neal, Iíll give this a shot next time down at the boat and report back. Thanks!
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Old 01-09-2022, 06:31 PM
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I'm local to you and happy to stop by sometime if you like.
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Old 01-09-2022, 06:49 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Thanks for the nice offer. I think I have a better understanding of what needs to get done. Wold rather have you down for a beer and a sail. Raincheck?
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Old 01-09-2022, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_G View Post
Thanks for the nice offer. I think I have a better understanding of what needs to get done. Wold rather have you down for a beer and a sail. Raincheck?
Sounds good to me.
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Old 01-14-2022, 07:08 PM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Smile

Just to close the loop on this:
- timing was set wrong, started over and used a safety wire through #1 spark plug hole to actually feel #1 piston arriving at top of stroke to find #1 TDC. Took disto cap off and rotor was off so repositioned disto a tooth or so over (also made sure advance was operational and oiled). Engine started on second try and idles fine at 1k rpm (a bit rough at 900). But seems to run great!

- Alternator not charging. Resting battery 12.42 and 12.3 with engine running at 1800 rpm. Local shop wants $180 to rebuild (original Motorola 35A) so I ordered a replacement from MMI. A note: my multi meter was reading 16.5A, turns out the internal battery on multi meter was bad. So good news - not killing the batteries.

- finally, feeling good about reversing gear issues.

Thanks everyone, appreciate the help!
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Old 01-14-2022, 09:47 PM
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Jim - you did not mention it and maybe you've done it you might be able to smooth out the engine a little more by a little more tuning of the timing. Tie the boat to the dock, loosen the distributor a bit, rev engine up to about cruising speed, about 1500 rpm or so and slightly rotate the distributor to increase rpm then back off just a little bit - lock down. After this then move downstream to the carb - jet, idle adj etc. Also, resting battery @ 12.43v is ok but not real healthy, ideal 12.65 +. Good luck
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Old 01-14-2022, 11:17 PM
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Hi Sam- yes, I did the power timing you describe. Also adjusted the idle mixture and found idle was strongest at only 1/2 turn out from the seat. Seems pretty lean based on manual which recommends 1 and 1/2 turn to start. But running great!

Thanks for the note.
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Old 01-15-2022, 01:58 AM
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Old 01-15-2022, 03:18 AM
Jim_G Jim_G is online now
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Hi John- Took the flame arrestor off to check choke and looks like itís working properly. After leaning out the mixture the choke seems to make a bigger difference than before with the idle. At previous mixture setting there wasnít a difference in idle when choke was on or off. Anyway, I like the new setting.

Thanks!
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Old 01-15-2022, 09:48 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Wrong, the idle adjustment screw adjusts AIR (not fuel) so the idle is no where close. At 1/2 turn out there is not enough "air" mixed into the fuel to burn clean and run smooth.
You have a gummed up idle passage. The idle should be around 1 1/2 turns to get enough air into the mix.
Should idle rock solid and smooth at 7/800 and 700 in gear at idle easily.

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Old 01-15-2022, 11:19 AM
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Hi Dave- so at 1/2 turn Iím running more rich (not lean) right? I had that thinking backward, thanks for straightening that out.

I have gaskets on the way and plan to take the carb apart and clean everything up along with new polishing filter and new hoses. Also changed water separator filter yesterday and added 5 gallons of gas with MMO added.

Next: clean inside of tank. Seems like this is a dirty fuel problem that surfaces when fuel is low and crap from bottom of the tank gets sucked into the system.

Anything else Iím missing?
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Old 01-15-2022, 11:41 AM
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Jim, when you have the carb apart use a fine wire like from a baggie tie stripped of the plastic coating. There are two idle ports that need to be poked and blown out thoroughly!! These ports are near the butterfly when the throttle is closed. One is just above the butterfly plate and the other is just below and they are very tiny and clog easily. The ports are cast and machined into the body of the carb which is soft material so no scraping!

Remove all of the jets and associated tubes carefully and blow out the passages after spraying and or soaking in carb or brake cleaner especially the idle circuit.
Also be very careful setting the float both at the right height and parallel to the carb body. I have found that setting the float lower in the bowl (about a 1/32~1/16 of an inch) to be advantages to idle and powered up.

When closing the carb halves take special care in sealing the "emulsion well" to the top of the carb body. This needs to be a good seal (no sealers and a fresh gasket) to control the air mix in the fuel when powered up. The idle circuit has its own well and jet and the mix is controlled by how much air is introduced by the idle adjusting screw. OPEN IS LEAN CLOSED IS RICH!

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Old 01-15-2022, 12:17 PM
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Fantastic! Thanks Dave. Great idea on the twist-ties- I was going to buy a set of wire probes for this but twist ties will work great. Ok, no scraping, thanks for the tip. On float setting, I donít remember there being a setting so Iíll pay close attention to getting this set correctly. Thanks again for the great notes on this, feeling good! Iíll report back in a week of so.
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Old 01-15-2022, 12:46 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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No time now but I did post a very complete post describing proper float adjustment with 2 sets of needle nose pliers. You might look it up.

I think Sastanley has found it a few times, not my expertise.

Don't hesitate to ask of something your not sure of!!!

Dave Neptune
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Old 01-15-2022, 02:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
No time now but I did post a very complete post describing proper float adjustment with 2 sets of needle nose pliers. You might look it up.
I believe HERE is the thread of which Dave speaks.
I've also got the "cliff notes" version...

"When adjusting the float, err to the high side of the setting, which is a lower fuel level.

Hold the top half of the carb upside down with no gasket and the float installed, check the height with a scale (good ruler).
The factory setting is 1 5/32" to the bottom of the float, which is on top and resting against the needle which is resting on the seat.

Two things of import here...
1-Be sure the bottom of the float is parallel with the body (this controls the closing position of the float accurately) of the carb, or as close as possible.
2-When tweaking the tabs use a pair of needle nose or duckbill pliers.
DO NOT PUSH, PULL OR BEND the tabs by holding the float itself. Only hold the brass tabs.
Now you can bend the larger portion that attaches to the float for the parallel adjustment and the little tab that rests on the seat for the height.
This can be a bit frustrating so go slow and easy.
I suggest that if anything, you set the float a bit HIGH @ 1 3/16~1 5/32.

These adjustments are important to control the emulsion wells that mix air into the fuel to break it up! The factory adjustment specs are 1 5/32 +/_ 1/32" which is why you need it to be as parallel as possible. I run mine at 1 7/32 and like the way it performs."
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Old 01-15-2022, 08:28 PM
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Thanks Dave, Iíll research this the float adjustment technique.

Hi Roadnsky- great thread you referenced and thanks for the cliff notes. Iíll study this prior to disassembling the carb. Parts should arrive sometime next week so Iíll report back. Thanks!
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