Head nut removal tricks anyone?

[fvigeant]

I have been shooting the head nuts with PB Blaster, hitting them with a hammer, shooting them again with PB, tried freezing them, scrubbing them with a wire brush, using the torque0untorque method... i have been able to get 13 of the 17 off... but... the last 4 seem determined to stay. How long should i let this madness continue.. I've spent a good hour each day for the last 4 days on the PB routine. Granted I have only 4 left the last 4 seem the toughest (2 are on the alternator bracket, one in the center just behind thermostat, and one between cylinders 3 and 4 next to exhaust manifold). Also the center nut on the alternator bracket is showing signs of stripping. I'm nervous #1 about stripping that center bolt and #2 using too much force such that I break a stud. I was considering trying a dremil cut off disc between the head and the nut to try and reduce the contact surface area and give a bit more access to the PB... any helpful suggestions

[67c&ccorv]

Heat them with a propane torch.

[fvigeant]

it has crossed my mind but with gas on board 2 ft away... torch is a last resort...

does anyone have advise or feedback on using a nut splitter in this scenerio?... I have looked through the MMI rebuild guide and its light on the plan B if the nuts don't come off. I could see a nut splitter making this a lot easier provided the stud threads arent damaged.

[67c&ccorv]

As long as you have proper ventilation and there are no leaks from your fuel system then you should be ok using a propane torch to heat the nuts.

You can always rig up a fan to blow plenty of fresh air into the workspace while you are heating - make sure there is a charged fire extinguisher at hand just in case.

[78Columbia27]

i have to agree with C&C; go with the heat; I've let PB soak into e-brake cables and suspension parts overnight - nothing - 5 min with the torch, off they come

[hanleyclifford]

You have only been at this for a few days. Be patient, keep working with the PB blaster. Like Dave says, "drink better beer" and keep coming back to the engine. The time spent now is much less grievous than that you might spend drilling out and tapping studs.

[lat 64]

I think what you are most trying to save is the threads in the head.
In addition to all of the above, steady hammering on the nut will set up vibrations that help break the rust and allow the penetrating oil to work in to the threads.

back and forth, torque and un-torque for many(MANY) cycles will often give results and build character.
Never ever give in to the temptation to just force it off. We are gentlemen of taste and finesse. Prove you are smarter that the average rusted bolt and wear it down with persistent, gentle, and many cycles of wiggles.
When you see it move, do not give the big twist, just continue with the wiggles until it is off.

Russ

[fvigeant]

ok i'll keep at it for a few more days... eager to get sailing...

[baileyem]

Hanley and Russ are correct. Patience is not only a character builder, it gets the job done correctly. It takes many, many cycles of PB Blaster; rap, rap, rap; torque, torque, torque; to get the job done. But it does, finally, get the job done without drilling and tapping.

'Been there: Done that: It worked !!

If all else fails, and as long as you are removing the head anyway, cutting the nuts, or cutting off the nut and the stud, will allow you to remove the head and give you better access to the studs after you take the head off.

And as long as this thread is on head removal and studs, I will ask a question along the same line: I have just removed the head from my early model A4 and none of the studs came out during the process. Each and every nut loosened and turned off eaisily.
My question is: Do I have to remove the studs, as the process is outlined in Don's manual, or can I simply not remove the studs, do a good job of cleaning the block, and then replace the head gaskets and head ??? Or do I have to 'fix something that ain't broke'??

Mike

[hanleyclifford]

I can only respond by saying that I have often left the studs in place and proceeded with the job and suffered no ill effects. Doing so, however, denies you the reconnaisance of the condition (and number) of threads remaining in the block. If they are all stuck in solidly, it is unlikely they are leaking.

[baileyem]

Thanks Hanley. My engine has spent 99.9 % of its life in fresh water and shows no signs of corosion/erosion problems, so I will probably not disturb the studs unless I hear some overwhelming argument from another quarter.

Mike

[fvigeant]

ok... day 5 of PB blasting and still the 4 nuts are unyielding...today is day 6 wish me luck...

In the meantime as the discussion has turned to studs... I have noticed something a bit odd seeming... about 1/2 my studs came out with the nuts... and as i inspect the studs some look normal black metal, one or two look a bit galvanized in appearance perhaps with a bit of white ash... the ones over the exhaust area have come out covered in soot simmilar to a fouled plug. I'm hoping this is not a sign of a more significant issue regarding exhaust manifold or valves. Alyn thoughts or comments? Also regarding the condition of the studs in relation to the head on those which remain in the head.... suprisingly there seems to be a great deal of space between the head and the studs such that i could nearly fit a pb spray straw in there (perhaps a bit squished)...

Any thoughts on why these studs aren't clean... are these signs of more bad things to come?

[Seabee Chief]

I have been told that Brake Fluid is the best penetrant to break loose the head bolts. This may get the last 4 loose for you.

[thatch]

fvigeant,
Although the head studs are only 3/8", the holes in the head are drilled 11/32" from the factory to allow for expansion/contraction, so nothing unusual here. Since the normal procedure for head removal requires tap tap, squirt squirt, patience and gentle twisting, I'd say you're right on track here also.
Tom

[Baltimore Sailor]

Originally Posted by thatch

fvigeant,
Although the head studs are only 3/8", the holes in the head are drilled 11/32" from the factory to allow for expansion/contraction, so nothing unusual here. Since the normal procedure for head removal requires tap tap, squirt squirt, patience and gentle twisting, I'd say you're right on track here also.
Tom

Did you mean to say 11/32"? A 3/8" stud is 12/32" -- would they really drill a hole for a stud smaller than the stud's diameter?

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by fvigeant

In the meantime as the discussion has turned to studs... I have noticed something a bit odd seeming... about 1/2 my studs came out with the nuts... and as i inspect the studs some look normal black metal, one or two look a bit galvanized in appearance perhaps with a bit of white ash... the ones over the exhaust area have come out covered in soot simmilar to a fouled plug. I'm hoping this is not a sign of a more significant issue regarding exhaust manifold or valves. Alyn thoughts or comments? Also regarding the condition of the studs in relation to the head on those which remain in the head.... suprisingly there seems to be a great deal of space between the head and the studs such that i could nearly fit a pb spray straw in there (perhaps a bit squished)...

Any thoughts on why these studs aren't clean... are these signs of more bad things to come?

fvigeant-
A little bit different than your situation, but you might gain some knowledge, info and maybe a trick from reading Don's post on this thread...
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...moval#post1756

[thatch]

Baltimore,
Thank's for picking up on my error. The holes in the head are actually 13/32". I know this (from personal experience) because, when starting the drill out process of a broken bolt or stud it often helps (with the head in place) to drill a pilot "divot" using the same size bit as the hole in the head. This insures that you are centered on the broken piece.
Tom

[Baltimore Sailor]

Originally Posted by thatch

Baltimore,
Thank's for picking up on my error. The holes in the head are actually 13/32". I know this (from personal experience) because, when starting the drill out process of a broken bolt or stud it often helps (with the head in place) to drill a pilot "divot" using the same size bit as the hole in the head. This insures that you are centered on the broken piece.
Tom

I thought maybe hyperspace was involved somehow, but I figured it was worth bringing up.

[fvigeant]

day 6 and 7 have past... no movement... will try brake fluid tomorrow. When you rap on the nut do you rap vertical and horizontally (i have been doing both trying not to misshapen the threads/nut)? Hen hitting vertically i feel like the stud tends to take most of the vibrations... should i try attaching a box wrench and pounding that harder?

[hanleyclifford]

Yes, put the combination wrench on the nut, apply slight pressure, counter clockwise of course, and simultaneously strike the end of the stud with a small ball peen hammer. With your minimal overhead clearance, you won't be able to hit it hard enough to do damage.

[baileyem]

After 6 days of working on your problem, you should be at a point where you can exert a little more torque on the nuts.
When I went through the same misery, I finally decided to push a little harder ..... and it moved. It was either take a chance on breaking the stud, or going out of my mind.
Drilling out a broken stud is no picnic, but it is better than making a career out of tap, tap, tap, push, push, push, etc....

Good Luck

Mike

[David Masury]

Have you tried a manual impact driver...

David

[rheaton]

Have you tried heat yet.

[fvigeant]

Originally Posted by David Masury

Have you tried a manual impact driver...

David

If I'm correct a manual imnpact driver requires a hammering from above and i dont have the clearance... i was considering the possability of renting a pneumatic impact wrench becuase a small one would just fit in the space i have... any thoughts? I'm leaving heat out for risk of fire since a torch would be involved... if i could find someone who would rent me an induction coil i would try heat that way but so far no luck

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by fvigeant

If I'm correct a manual imnpact driver requires a hammering from above and i dont have the clearance... i was considering the possability of renting a pneumatic impact wrench becuase a small one would just fit in the space i have... any thoughts? I'm leaving heat out for risk of fire since a torch would be involved... if i could find someone who would rent me an induction coil i would try heat that way but so far no luck

Do you have a Shrink Wrap HEAT GUN or a (good) Hair Dryer?
(Be sure your First Mate doesn't catch you sneaking it out of the house. AND be sure to wipe the grease off!!)
Arguably, you can get a pretty decent temperature going with either.