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Old 06-09-2014, 07:01 PM
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Question Finding the source of a gas leak

Hi folks,

My late model A4 has a gas leak somewhere around the carb. I've done a thorough inspection of the fuel lines from the electric fuel pump(which is installed on the bulkhead). The in-line fuel filter was leaking, so I've replaced that, along with the hose that went from the pump to the in-line filter.

The hose from the inline fuel filter to the carb is not leaking, but I'm not so sure about the actual brass elbow that screws into the block. It looks like the previous owner used some black goop(RTV?) on the threads instead of pipe tape.

If I unscrew that elbow, would I use pipe tape on the threads, or will gas eat that tape? If not pipe tape, then what?

Shortly after purchasing the boat last summer, the carb burped a bunch of gas into the bilge. So we had to pump that out, and, being new to the A4 and not having my Moyer's Manual yet, I paid the local boat mechanic to install a new carb kit.

The gas doesn't seem to leak out when it's just sitting there, as I've cleaned it up, come back the next day, and it's still clean. I think it must be leaking either while running(yikes!) or right after stopping the motor from a trip on the lake.

Are there any other places other than the gasket between the top & bottom halves of the carb, where gas can leak out the carb?

Right now, I suspect either that gasket(which I assume was replaced when they changed out the carb kit), or the brass elbow. But if there are other possible culprits, please guide me.

This A4 runs like a dream, but it seems like it's been one gas leak after another since I bought it.

I'm tempted to remove the carb and do an inspection and re-install. But I've got about only 2" of clearance on that side of the engine. It's really difficult to work on.

The mechanic who replaced the carb kit was the first one to inform me about installing a oil pressure safety switch, so I'm also doing that this week. That's another fun one, because the install spot is right above the oil pressure adjuster, which is also on that side of the engine.

Any advice of how to methodically track this gas leak down is greatly appreciated.
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:08 PM
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gas leaks/smell

A few things...

These engines can have a hodge-podge of new/old parts as mine does. We have the vertical flame arrestor which provides a place for any excess fuel to leak out of the carb. Many others have a horizontal flame arrestor which points up and holds the fuel in the carb.

It is much easier to remove the carburetor (2 bolts and the throttle and choke controls & fuel line) and work on it on a bench when you do. You may consider making a removable panel to make this kind of work easier if it is very tight access.

My experience with fuel issues after 10 years of A4 ownership tell me that most fuel leaks are associated with dirty fuel clogging the float valve of the carb. If that gets stuck open it will allow some gas to drop down into the carb where it may accumulate and eventually leak out or evaporate. In my case the cause of this was dirty fuel in our gas tank. You might consider pumping out your tank and inspect the last few gallons carefully as any gunk will float under the gas.

Replacing old hoses & filters is always a good idea but will not clean up the problem if the bottom of your tank contains what is pictured below:
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Old 06-09-2014, 09:32 PM
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permatex for gas fittings

Don't use tephlon tape or RTV for fuel line fittings. Use Permatex Form-a-gasket #1 as a sealant on the threads of rigid fuel fittings such as the elbow you describe. Might well be what is on there now.
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Old 06-09-2014, 10:57 PM
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Thanks for the replies and tips, guys. I sure do appreciate it.

Here's a pic of my A4, and the tight confines I'm dealing with on the manifold side. I'm not sure if I can make an access panel, because frankly I'm not sure what's behind the fiberglass opposite the carb. I'll have to go down into the aft port locker where the fuel tank battery charger and wiring panels live. I might be able to squeeze in there and find what's just beyond the exhaust.

Permatex #1, check.

Shouldn't the (Edit: thanks ndutton!)flame arrestor prevent the fuel from spilling out if I have a float valve stuck?

If I go ahead and remove the carb, will it be readily apparent if the float valve is clogged?

For bonus points, can anyone tell me what that thing is that's sticking out the front, just below and to the right of the thermostat?

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Last edited by Minnesota_Slick; 06-09-2014 at 11:18 PM.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:16 PM
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A couple of things Slick,

It's not a fuel arrestor but rather a backfire flame arrestor. Get enough fuel in there and out it will come.

About the limited access where the OPSS is normally located, nothing says it HAS to go there. It can be installed at the same location as the oil pressure gauge sender. If considering this be aware of added weight on the lengthy and small pipe nipple. I made an oil pressure manifold out of 1/8" NPT Tees for the gauge sender, fuel pump OPSS and alarm sensor all fed from the oil port behind the flywheel. Due to weight concerns I mounted the sender array on a nearby bulkhead and connected it with 300 psi hose.

It should resolve your access problems.
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
A couple of things Slick,

It's not a fuel arrestor but rather a backfire flame arrestor. Get enough fuel in there and out it will come.

About the limited access where the OPSS is normally located, nothing says it HAS to go there. It can be installed at the same location as the oil pressure gauge sender. If considering this be aware of added weight on the lengthy and small pipe nipple. I made an oil pressure manifold out of 1/8" NPT Tees for the gauge sender, fuel pump OPSS and alarm sensor all fed from the oil port behind the flywheel. Due to weight concerns I mounted the sender array on a nearby bulkhead and connected it with 300 psi hose.

It should resolve your access problems.
Thanks, Neil! I've edited my post above so as not to confuse a rookie reading this thread in the future.

You must have read my mind regarding the nipple where the oil pressure sending unit is located behind the flywheel. I was wondering if that was a "legal" configuration. I did read in the Moyer Manual that you don't want that nipple to break....ever.

Believe it or not, I can actually get to the "normal" location of the OPSS if I lie on my tummy in the rear berth and get it from behind. I'm taking my 1/4" ratchet down to the boat tomorrow to see if I can get that plug removed. I wasn't able to do it with a thumb ratchet today. It's in there pretty tight.

Any idea what that thing is that looks like a spark plug that's SE of the thermostat? It's got a wire attached so I'm guessing some kind of sending unit like a water temp sending unit?
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Old 06-09-2014, 11:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota_Slick View Post
Any idea what that thing is that looks like a spark plug that's SE of the thermostat? It's got a wire attached so I'm guessing some kind of sending unit or maybe a water temp sending unit?
Correct, water temp sender.
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Old 06-10-2014, 12:20 AM
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MS,

That is the cleanest and neatest engine I have ever seen. Nice work!

Mark, up the river from you
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuppers View Post
MS,

That is the cleanest and neatest engine I have ever seen. Nice work!

Mark, up the river from you
Ha, thanks Mark!

Actually, when I get the gas leak fixed I'm going to take a wire brush and a can of spray paint to it to clean it up even more. The PO did a wonderful job with her, and I'm determined to continue his legacy.

The PO didn't sail her much in the past few years, but instead rewired it, redid the exhaust system, hoses...well, everything. We were really lucky to find a boat in this shape.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:25 AM
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Slick,

You have an Ericson 29. Mine is one year older ( 1976 ). Great boat and fairly decent engine compartment when compared to some, with one exception: That entire right side ( carb side ) of the compartment when looking aft.

My engine compartment has a rectangle cut into that bulkhead to allow access to that side so you can adjust carb, adjust choke screw and just get something done. You essentially are then able to reach your right hand into one of the galley cabinet doors and hook left through that space.

Mine is about 20 inches long and 7 inches high and provides me some ability to work in that area. At some point when you have your carb removed and fuel lines out of the way, you might consider making such a modification yourself. I use a Multi-tool with appropriate fitting for this kind of cut.

https://www.ridgid.com/us/en/jobmax-...ol-starter-kit

I may see if I can find a photo that shows the access rectangle that I am talking about and send it to you.

Good luck.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:58 AM
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Here goes ( photo taken as I was reinstalling my engine ).
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Old 06-10-2014, 02:49 AM
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I am not sure the glass fuel filter you have inline from the pump to carb is Coast Guard approved. I had one and it was useful for seeing the flow of fuel but it may not pass the burn-test requirements.

Get the leak fixed soon. A small leak is dangerous. A co-worker blew up his boat last summer and sent his 15-year-old daughter to the burn center. it's that serious.
I learned so much about this subject on this forum. I am just embarrassed about my ignorance before then.


Russ
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Old 06-10-2014, 08:15 AM
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Fuel line touching the manifold????
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 06-10-2014, 09:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota_Slick View Post
For bonus points, can anyone tell me what that thing is that's sticking out the front, just below and to the right of the thermostat?

That's your temperature sensor. It extends into the cooling jacket in the head and measures the coolant temperature at that point.
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seapadrik View Post
Slick,

My engine compartment has a rectangle cut into that bulkhead to allow access to that side so you can adjust carb, adjust choke screw and just get something done. You essentially are then able to reach your right hand into one of the galley cabinet doors and hook left through that space.

Mine is about 20 inches long and 7 inches high and provides me some ability to work in that area. At some point when you have your carb removed and fuel lines out of the way, you might consider making such a modification yourself. I use a Multi-tool with appropriate fitting for this kind of cut.

I may see if I can find a photo that shows the access rectangle that I am talking about and send it to you.

Good luck.
Many thanks, seapadrik!

I have both the reciprocating tool and a dremel, so I should be set to make an access panel. One thing I can't quite tell from your picture, though, is what's on the back side of the panel? Isn't the galley cabinet floor in the way, or did you take your tool to that, too?




Quote:
Fuel line touching the manifold????
Dan S/V Marian Claire
Point taken! I'm pretty sure it's been like this for years, but I agree that heat against a fuel source is not a winning combination. I will see how I can redress that situation.

Looks like my whole week of vacation is going to be spent with the boat!
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:10 AM
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Exclamation Eeek

Is the scavange tube hooked up?

Dave Neptune
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Is the scavange tube hooked up?

Dave Neptune
Is that the hard, copper line that screws into the block close to the carb? If so, yes, it is connected and dry.

I forget what the purpose of that tube is now, but I remember reading about it in the Moyer manual. I will double check when I'm out at the boat today.

I'm old enough to remember cars that used carburetors, but I've never actually seen the inside of one. My A4's carb will be the guinea pig.
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Old 06-10-2014, 01:34 PM
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Thumbs up Scavange tube

Slick, make sure the copper line ~~the scavange tube~~ is clear!! It's purpose is to "suck" (via vacuum) any dribbling or puddling fuel in the throat of the carb back into the manifold, a very important SAFETY feature.

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Old 06-10-2014, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Slick, make sure the copper line ~~the scavange tube~~ is clear!! It's purpose is to "suck" (via vacuum) any dribbling or puddling fuel in the throat of the carb back into the manifold, a very important SAFETY feature.

Dave Neptune
Will do, Dave. I disconnected the end of it that connects to the bottom of the carb, and will check it for flow next time I'm on the boat. I have a can of compressed air that I'll use to clean it out(once the fuel is out, of course.).

This is probably not the only culprit, but I found this when I removed the flame arrestor today.


I was able to source a new one at a local marine parts store. I also replaced all fuel lines and the glass in-line filter with a metal one.

I brought the carb home with me, and will open that up tomorrow. The old-timer who sold me the gasket told me that the reason the fuel leaked is because either the float valve stuck, or the choke doesn't close all the way.

Since the mechanic replaced the carb kit last summer, do you think I can get away with re-using the gaskets? Or should I purchase new ones just in case?
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:18 PM
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Hey Slick,
If you have fuel overflowing the carb, it can be ONLY one of two things - a) bad float valve, or b) crack in the bowl.
Personally, not sure about that suction line and it's function. Let's see - no suction line and float valve doesn't close - engine runs rich and finally dies. But with the suction line, engine runs rich then finally dies. Am I missing something? Hey, let me know - I would like to know this stuff! How does that suction line make the engine safer???
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Old 06-10-2014, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
Hey Slick,
If you have fuel overflowing the carb, it can be ONLY one of two things - a) bad float valve, or b) crack in the bowl.
Personally, not sure about that suction line and it's function. Let's see - no suction line and float valve doesn't close - engine runs rich and finally dies. But with the suction line, engine runs rich then finally dies. Am I missing something? Hey, let me know - I would like to know this stuff! How does that suction line make the engine safer???
Suction line? I'm afraid I don't know of that. Are you talking about the scavenge line?

Let me re-iterate - The engine runs great, and no starting issues. Only leaking when stopped.

I forgot to mention that I also replaced the fuel pump filter and cleaned the magnet on the bottom of it. There was a lot of crud attached to the magnet.

This is a pic of the cleaned magnet and new filter & gasket.

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Old 06-10-2014, 11:05 PM
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What you're calling the suction line is more commonly referred to as a scavenge tube. It's a USCG requirement for updraft carbs. Here's the language of the requirement:

Quote:
Code of Federal Regulations > Title 33 - Navigation and Navigable Waters > CHAPTER I--COAST GUARD, DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY > PART 183--BOATS AND ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT > Subpart J—Fuel Systems

§ 183.526 Carburetors.

(c) Each updraft and horizontal draft carburetor must have a device that:

(1) Collects and holds fuel that flows out of the carburetor venturi section toward the air intake;

(2) Prevents collected fuel from being carried out of the carburetor assembly by the shock wave of a backfire or by reverse air flow; and

(3) Returns collected fuel to the engine induction system after the engine starts,

[CGD 74–209, 42 FR 5950, Jan. 31, 1977, as amended by CGD 77–98, 42 FR 36253, July 14, 1977]
By design residual fuel upon shutdown pools in the air intake horn. At the next startup the manifold vacuum draws the pooled fuel into the intake where it is burned in the cylinders. Note that downdraft carbs have no such requirement. Their residual fuel naturally pools in the intake manifold.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:38 AM
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Lightbulb Another tack

Hey Slick, how old is the exhaust? If the exhaust is plugging up it can via the back pressure slow the intake (volume & velocity) and fuel will precipitate (gather) in the intake by sticking to the runners and such. Once shut down it leaks out of an UPDRAFT manifold and into the carb. It will be dirty stuff as there will be "exhaust" (burned and unburned gases) forced back into the intake too.
A possibility.

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Old 06-11-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Hey Slick, how old is the exhaust?

Dave Neptune
Hello Dave,

The PO rebuilt the exhaust, along with most everything else, within the past two or three years. I would estimate that it has less than 100 sailing hours on it.

Is there a way to test the exhaust? Btw, I get a huge amount of water out the exhaust in the rear of the boat, so I don't seem to have any obstructions there. Unless I'm confusing water exhaust with internal combustion exhaust.

Surgery on the carb is scheduled for later this morning. I will post pics while the patient is under general anesthesia.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:19 PM
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Exactly how does one remove the Venturi tube?

The Moyer Manual simply says to remove it, without specifying how. It looks like it can be popped out with a flat head screwdriver, but I'd rather not experiment.

Btw, the float valve needle seemed to open and close just fine, and the float valve valley looks pristine, with no crud or obvious scratches.

The float looks good, too. No obvious cracks or holes, nor any "sloshing fuel" feel when shook near my ear.

I don't think I'm going to risk removing the idle jet, as I'm afraid of breaking it. The small screwdriver I have is a little thin and I think it might strip the groove.
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