Thru-Hull Repairs.

[Mo]

What a weekend. Friday night the call...bilge pump activating every 4 minutes. Next morning we pulled a friends Sabre 34 on the trailer I built for my C&C 30...no problems.

Crack 8 inches up from keel on both side...once we cleaned it up and cut out the wet stuff, we could look straight Thru the hull and out the other side of her...so the boat was out of the water for 34 hours and we laid a total of 6 inner layers of weave, mat, weave, mat, weave, mat,....then 17 layer of intermittent weave/mat on "both" sides...that will never break again.

Pics attached.

[Mo]

More pics of the 34 footer pulled up on my trailer and repaired by a friend and myself...and relaunched in 34 hours.

[ILikeRust]

Why/how did it crack? Just simply old age? Some old impact that is now manifesting itself?

[Mo]

He took her sailing on Thursday in about 30 kts of wind and a bit of chop built up. When he got back to the dock noticed the bilge pump going every few minutes. He stayed on the boat running the engine once in a while for two days to keep batteries up. I spoke to him briefly on Friday evening and he was thinking of hiring a crane if he couldn`t figure out where the water was coming in.

At that point I told him `I think my trailer will take her`...so I offered to pull it if he gets in a jam. A few hours later he called and asked if we could try pulling her in the morning...and we went from there.

Here's how we figured it cracked. There is a sump forward in the bilge that doesn't drain with the bilge pump....this particular area has it's own pump and we figure:
A) water got in there in the winter and froze...the expansion caused the crack
B) maybe the previous owner had her in a bad storm and she pounded so hard that she developed a crack....the glass wasn't very thick there at all, however, it was obvious there was a previous repair and not a good one.

[hanleyclifford]

Mo , Also consider the possibility of water getting to a keel bolt and then freezing. Could have been a straight on grounding that cracked the area under where that water collected.

[Mo]

Hanley, the forward keel bolt was right there...that`s why we were thinking frost. There was no damage to keel or rear of keel/hull joint to indicate a hard grounding. Personally, my first thoughts were she was built too light and took a hard pounding at sea...however, I have since gone with the ice theory.

We remove the keel nut/washer and cut holes in the new glass as it was laid in....that sump is now sealed also so she will not break there again. I was getting a bit of flack laying so much glass...lots of " you won't need that much; that's enough; why are you puttin on all that glass; you will never fair it.....my answer to all that was....maybe she cracked in a sea....she won't crack again here.

[hanleyclifford]

Aye, as the fishermen say, "if enough is enough, more is better!"

[Mo]

Launching `Wild Heart` (Saber 34) following repairs. Used my Dodge Cummins 4x4 to pull and relaunch. The 1 1/2 inch nylon rope is what I use for extension. She came off about 10 minutes later with the tide.

[YOUTUBE]uExhYgWe4e0[/YOUTUBE]

[67c&ccorv]

Geez Mo - that crack looked like she was about to propagate all the way up to the deck!

Imagine losing your bow in a rough sea!!!

[Mo]

I have no doubt she would have broken in a storm. Jim, the owner has been at sea all his life. He bought the boat 2 years ago from a repair company. I don't know if they knew about that repair, however, it was pure garbage.

Lou had her out for a sail and a container ship went by. He turned and faced her wake. When back to the dock they noticed the bilge pump doing it's thing. Then a while later, the bilge pump was activated again...on auto. So Jim started looking for a leak. He had done some work on the head plumbing a few days prior and thought that might be it...Jim spent two days on her before we took her out on Saturday Morning. We were not expecting to find what we found.

[Dave Neptune]

Mo, yeh a bit much glass, but overkill won't break you just have to lug it around.
The glass exposed looks terribly dry, like not enough resin in the glass. Is that where the water froze creating separation?
You're a good guy to have around sir!

Dave Neptune

[Mo]

It was labour day weekend Dave....we had people donating supplies as the supplier wasn`t open. We used up all the `professional stuff we had`. When we ran low, someone brought us "Bondo" resin and we tried that....it was too thick to work with. In the end we called Sandie at the fiberglass shop and ask her to meet us at the shop....then we got good resin again.

That pick was were I called it and said we stop here. The resin from the auto parts place was just too thick and was miserable to work with. Sunday ended up grinding that off next morning and go again. Wasn`t hard to do, just the last couple of lays had to come off.... fiberglass dust everywhere.

Was tempted to thin the Bondo resin that day but by then I was really pissed off with it, however, decided to stick with how I always do things.

[Carl-T705]

Mo, That is a wonderful trailer you have there, absolutely perfect for just this kind of a job!!!!! Thumbs up to you MO!!!! If that crack is ahead of the first keel bolt my guess is a terribly hard grounding in this boats past and a poor prior repair, nice work there!

[Mo]

Hi Carl,
We cleaned it up and cut about and inch-wide gap through so we were looking right through the boat....the most forward keel bolt was right there. When I first looked at her I figured she must have slipped from crane straps and hit bow first, or took a bad pounding in a storm. But, the crack being right there by the keel bolt, in an enclosed, non-drained pocket...I think the initial cause was frost damage that eventually worked it's way larger with sea flexion / motion. There was a poor repair over a small portion of that crack...nothing done on the inside. So, I figure, if it had been repaired right the first time there would be no 8 inch crack on both sides. That boat was one storm away from the bottom.

A hard grounding (with forward momentum) normally causes a break aft of the keel...sometimes as much as 6 to 12 inches futhure back from the end of the keel. This is caused by the keel flexing and pushing the bottom of the boat upward aft of the keel.

[systemek]

I find this thread not only interesting, but informative regarding sailboat issues. Two thumbs up. Thanks!

[Carl-T705]

Mo, Frost and freezing is a powerful force for sure, I just bought a 20ft cuddy cabin cruiser with a fresh factory overhauled V8 engine that runs like a top . Only problem is the Previous owner forgot to winterize and the water pours out of the side of the block faster than the pump can draw in. It's always in the details!LOL
Have you checked for damage aft of the keel? Or another poorly repaired area back there?.

[Mo]

Rest of the boat looked fine. No keel damage and nothing seen aft. If I saw damage on the keel I'd be looking to the rear second. Too bad about the engine in the cuddy... Ice is wonderful stuff if you are playing hockey...its also very powerful and causes builds pressure. The very reason I don't believe in pink antifreeze in an engine...when it slushes up pressure is exerted...it will search out to the weakest component to release, where it be a water jacket, manifold, head, muffler,...it happens.

I'm not at all worried about Jim's boat right now. Have to say though, I didn't think she was very thick near the keel although she was well engineered structurally in the bilge. I'm sure had it not been for frost there would never have been a problem with her. I have never seen a keel support, flooring braces etc as numerous in a boat...perhaps they wanted to build a strong frame and lay light over it....didn't work once frost got to it.

[Sony2000]

Many C&C designed boats have an area infront of the forward bilge where water can accummulate and freeze. On my Paceship 29CB last year, there was water there, because the keel is in a two sections, left and right halfs, around the centerboard. My shipright suggested drilling a hole 12" to 18" below the void, and the water drained out. M4000 allows the hole to be reopened when necessary. I think the void was effectively filled with epoxy, but time will tell, as well as the drain hole will show.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Sony2000

Many C&C designed boats have an area infront of the forward bilge where water can accummulate and freeze. On my Paceship 29CB last year, there was water there, because the keel is in a two sections, left and right halfs, around the centerboard. My shipright suggested drilling a hole 12" to 18" below the void, and the water drained out. M4000 allows the hole to be reopened when necessary. I think the void was effectively filled with epoxy, but time will tell, as well as the drain hole will show.

I have a hole drilled in mine...has been there since I got her. We have about 15 boats in the club, various makes, that have tapped holes in lowest portion of keel for drainage.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Mo

More pics of the 34 footer pulled up on my trailer and repaired by a friend and myself...and relaunched in 34 hours.

Remember this Saber 34: My buddy Jim was racing her near Magdalin Islands in rough weather about 10 days ago and heard a thump like he hit something in the water. A while later chain plates came up through deck. I think the thump was the chain plates (rigged to keel on these) letting go. http://sailstrait.wordpress.com/2014...the-challenge/ he had been in 35 kts for hours when trouble rose it's head.

At the time I did the above repair I finished up with about 1/4 inch outside the keel at the forward. (Post #1, this thread...another bottle of rum on my boat yesterday...here's what Lou and I did....we laid a total of 6 inner layers of weave, mat, weave, mat, weave, mat,....then 17 layer of intermittent weave/mat on "both" sides...that will never break again. The forward keel nut was removed and we layed loads of FG in there. Jim took the boat to a boat yard in Magadlin Islands and had her lifted. The stern of keel had dropped about an 1/2 inch and was working loose in the storm. Forward was still up tight. That front bolt area that Lou and I reinforced held and that bolt held its own. The rest started to pull through and holes widened with shear forces. Keel might have come clear and fallen away had that one bolt not held and keep it up....

Jim is having the keel taken off and a whole new lay-up done inside and out...with some substance to it. When I was at that boat I said she was built too light around the keel joint...couldn't believe it. They fella's at the boat yard said "I think a bottle of good rum is in order for the yard that did this repair here"... 34 hrs on Labor day weekend to help a friend out.

[Dave Neptune]

Mo, ice job again and yer' friend owes a possible avoided swim to you!!

I have often wondered why cruisers don't kick the gong and do the same. I am no fan of a bolted keel offshore. I know of more than one dropping, getting loose or just plain disappearing. For the amount of work to "glass" it in and the additional width on the keel would do little as far as reducing performance, remember were cruising here lots of krap on the boat.

Internally ballasted boats just seem a safer option to me.

Dave Neptune

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune

Mo, ice job again and yer' friend owes a possible avoided swim to you!!

I have often wondered why cruisers don't kick the gong and do the same. I am no fan of a bolted keel offshore. I know of more than one dropping, getting loose or just plain disappearing. For the amount of work to "glass" it in and the additional width on the keel would do little as far as reducing performance, remember were cruising here lots of krap on the boat.

Internally ballasted boats just seem a safer option to me.

Dave Neptune

Jim is a professional marine engineer (now retired) but he came and saw me yesterday and we chatted. He felt a thump and thinks he hit a whale or submerged object. No mark on keel...I think the thump was her chain plates, attached to keel, breaking as it was letting go...my theory. Anyway, Jim won't mess around with that...the guys told him they will remove the keel and lay in glass heavy enough to sustain the pressure and forces. It all works well when new but when boats start getting 25-35 years old the faults and flaws pop up...many a boat lost and no one knows why.

Just yesterday I was sailing home with about 20 kts blowing off the land...boat was flying at 7.5 steady for about 3 hrs so....don't want to contemplate a keel failure...she'd roll and torpedo in. That said, I know my FG is 1 1/2 thick at the bottom of the boat where the keel joint is so pulling through is not a likely option for it. There are stories of C&C 30's hitting rocks doing 7 kts with a chute up and only put a dent in the lead....leads to confidence...or over-confidence.

[Al Schober]

Even though this thread has nothing to do with Atomic 4s, I find it interesting.
I've seen fin keel boats that have hit things, and the major damage is usually at the aft end of the keel. Aft end of keel pushes upward, causing major structural and joinerwork damage. This is something different.
First thought is that someone (PO?) added a shower sump at the fwd end of the bilge, and that filled and froze. If I come up with something different (or new info is presented), I could change my mind.
Looks like a nice job on the repair. Personally, I would have used epoxy for a better bond to the substrate. Polyester makes a nice layup, but it's a lousy glue.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Al Schober

Even though this thread has nothing to do with Atomic 4s, I find it interesting.
I've seen fin keel boats that have hit things, and the major damage is usually at the aft end of the keel. Aft end of keel pushes upward, causing major structural and joinerwork damage. This is something different.
First thought is that someone (PO?) added a shower sump at the fwd end of the bilge, and that filled and froze. If I come up with something different (or new info is presented), I could change my mind.
Looks like a nice job on the repair. Personally, I would have used epoxy for a better bond to the substrate. Polyester makes a nice layup, but it's a lousy glue.

Al that repair was done almost 2 years ago and it didn't let go or faulter. The boat is built way too light. Where the crack was in the picture (where we fixed her) she was barely 1/4 thick glass....that is nowhere near enough for a keel area if they want to keep the boat at all. I've seen the hull crack aft of the keel as well...can't touch a hunter at all and they do it. My friend bough a hunter 38 and ran her on the rocks of Canso NS on his way back from Ontario with her (3 weeks ago)....she too is on the hard, keel, hull, rudder ...and a hole above the water line compliments of the rescue fishing boat...it is what it is.

We had one Hunter 32 here last spring and she "gapped" a visible crack when lifted in straps. It was about a foot back from the keel and a foot long in a smile shape across the bottom aspect of the hull. The guy had just bought her and although not evident with bottom paint etc, she was damaged. Layed it back down and the guy spent a few days on her to lay glass...fine since.

I may move up to something bigger at some point in the future but one thing is for sure...I have boats in my mind that I'd never own. Like watching a guy come off the dock, hook another boat with his stanchion and pull his stanchion out of the deck...with it 1/8 inch thick fiberglass deck piece with it....I wouldn't take the thing across the harbor...very popular name. I could care less how "pretty" they are, if they couldn't engineer it to take a smack someone else can have it.

My buddy has a beautiful Hunter Vision...I alway's say and I rib him daily (he beat me in a race the other day)..."nice boat..but it's still a Hunter" When fishermen up here have a boat built they go in when she's being layed up and they make the builders drill multiple holes to check thickness...that's not a bad concept...and they don't want any core.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by Al Schober

This is something different.
First thought is that someone (PO?) added a shower sump at the fwd end of the bilge, and that filled and froze. If I come up with something different (or new info is presented), I could change my mind.
Looks like a nice job on the repair. Personally, I would have used epoxy for a better bond to the substrate. Polyester makes a nice layup, but it's a lousy glue.

When I first worked on it a almost two years ago (read posts) I thought she was built too light and not enough glass. I was swayed by the ice theory myself until his keel frigging near came off in the middle of the Gulf of St Lawrence a couple of weeks ago. Like being built too light...which, combined with having chainplates attached to the keel, a design issue that also should be looked into. Had nothing to do with a shower or ice...lighter, cheaper, faster. Beautiful boat inside and real nice woodwork etc...a shame.

I know Bill has a Saber as well but she's smaller. Jims boat, look at the pics, has so much length out ahead of her keel as well...what were they thinking making her 1/4 inch thick down low...unbelievable.