Engine starts, runs a few seconds and quits

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  • Neuse River Sailor
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2017
    • 24

    Engine starts, runs a few seconds and quits

    I am having problems getting my Atomic 4 to keep running after it starts. It is a Moyer rebuild from about ten years ago, got very little use until I bought the boat last fall. I had a lot of issues for a while that I attribute to the long layup but since this spring the engine has run well.

    In late June I changed the fuel filter, new Racor style 10 micron, just like the one that it replaced.

    I didn't use the boat in July, back to the boat a couple of days ago. The engine started on ether and immediately quit. I traced through the fuel lines, starting by blowing back through the line upstream of the filter to prove there was no blockage at the tank. Then I ran a wire through the petcock so I know that there is at least some opening there. I jumped the facet to the coil and confirmed that gas is coming out the downstream side of the facet - but it is more like a dribble than a stream.

    At this point the engine would start easily without ether, run for a few seconds and die.

    I tried keeping the engine alive with ether. If I kept spraying ether into the intake, it would run indefinitely.

    With the facet hot-wired, I could run it for a few seconds, the engine would then start easily, run for a few seconds and die. The longer I let the facet run between starts, the longer the engine would run before dying.

    At this point I removed the carburetor - no easy task as the engine compartment is horribly cramped. I removed the plugs in the bottom and soaked the whole carb in clean fresh gas for a couple of hours. Then I hosed it down with carb cleaner and left it to dry overnight. I didn't dig all the way into the carb as I don't trust my own mechanical ability to get it back together.

    I cleaned the air filter in gas and carb cleaner.

    In the morning I reassembled things and tried starting the engine. Same drill - it started easily without ether, ran for a few seconds and died.

    I am up the Albemarle Sound in Edenton and am having trouble finding an A4 mechanic in the area, so I would like to keep pursuing this repair if anyone can give me guidance as to what to do next. I am thinking of bypassing the fuel filter and see if that gives better output from the facet. I have read that there is an internal filter in the facet and maybe that is clogged - I hope not, because getting to the nut on the bottom or even removing the facet from the engine appears to be impossible with the engine in place. It looks like a situation where the local installer shoehorned the assembled engine with all its accessories into place without thinking about future maintenance.

    One more thing, the local sources of gas are sketchy. The nearest source that I would really trust is the distributor in Elizabeth City, about thirty miles from here. But if bad fuel could be the issue, I could drive over there and bring ten gallons back.

    So after this longwinded post, first, how much volume should come out of the facet? And if the dribble I see is too little, what next?

    thanks all.
  • roadnsky
    Afourian MVP
    • Dec 2008
    • 3101

    #2
    Welcome to the forum!

    Couple of questions...

    • When you hot wired the Facet, did it make a clicking noise?
    • Do you think there is a way to gain better access to that side of the engine?
    (i.e. cut an access port cleanly. Come at it from aft of the engine)
    • What boat do you have?


    I'm leaning to the Facet being your issue.
    A simple test would be to get an AUX tank (5 gal) and run a hose directly to the carb using a gravity feed. (Get the tank higher than the carb)
    If the engine will keep running with this rig, we can start working back from there.

    Hang in there. You can do this.
    You don't need to be a mechanic to keep these simple engines running.
    Very few of us on this site are.
    The combined wisdom here will guide you through and besides saving boat buck$ you'll feel really good about yerself!
    Last edited by roadnsky; 08-07-2017, 05:44 PM.
    -Jerry

    'Lone Ranger'
    sigpic
    1978 RANGER 30

    Comment

    • Dave Neptune
      Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
      • Jan 2007
      • 5046

      #3
      A simple fuel pressure gage inline would let you know how the Facet is working and be very handy for any future diagnosis.

      Recheck the fittings and clamps down stream, if just a bit of air get in you will have fuel delivery issues.

      Dave Neptune

      Comment

      • Whippet
        Afourian MVP
        • May 2012
        • 272

        #4
        prime the racor?

        in my experience, a racor has to be "primed" when changed. otherwise there is an air vacuum and wont suck fuel. some posts elsewhere how to do that
        Steve
        Etobicoke YC, C&C27
        A4 #204381, 1980

        Comment

        • tenders
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2007
          • 1440

          #5
          What changed since the engine last ran well: fuel filter
          Simplest explanation for the problem: fuel filter
          Item to rule OK before blaming other components: fuel filter

          I agree that you would be very well-served with an inline fuel pressure gauge right after the Facet pump but I think you should first take that fuel filter off and make positively sure its gasket is intact and in place to rule out an air leak, which would account for these symptoms.

          When I last replaced my filter I was surprised by how readily the Facet pump pulled fuel through it without priming, or doing anything else special, and went merrily about its business. I think I had smeared oil or gas on both sides of the gasket before installing to get a good seal.
          Last edited by tenders; 08-08-2017, 07:02 AM.

          Comment

          • JOHN COOKSON
            Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
            • Nov 2008
            • 3500

            #6
            Originally posted by Neuse River Sailor View Post
            I jumped the facet to the coil and confirmed that gas is coming out the downstream side of the facet - but it is more like a dribble than a stream.
            thanks all.
            Agree with Tenders. The engine will not stare or run until there is adequate fuel pressure. There is a problem upstream from the fuel pump. The filter is #1 suspect. After you get the filter squared away if there are still problems there could be a blockage in the tank. Did you try blowing back into the tank and listening for bubbles?

            TRUE GRIT

            Comment

            • Neuse River Sailor
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2017
              • 24

              #7
              Thanks for the ideas

              Starting last first, yes, I blew through the fuel line to the tank and heard it bubbling in the tank. With the facet hotwired I can hear a distinct clicking of the pump working,, I have had the fuel filter off and on a couple of times and filled it with gas before I screwed it on, but maybe the next step will be to isolate the fuel filter, run a hose straight from the tank to the facet and see if that fixes things. If that doesn't work I will try gravity feeding the facet and see if that works. I will also check all fittings downstream of the facet to make sure they are tight.

              I'm taking it that my facet output should be more of a squirt than a dribble. If I gravity feed the facet and the engine runs fine does will that suggest a problem with the facet itself?

              Comment

              • joe_db
                Afourian MVP
                • May 2009
                • 4474

                #8
                Please buy a fuel pressure gauge. You can drive yourself crazy trying to guess issues by extrapolating from the problem back to likely causes when a good measurement tells you right then and there if you have fuel (or whatever).
                Joe Della Barba
                Coquina
                C&C 35 MK I
                Maryland USA

                Comment

                • Neuse River Sailor
                  Senior Member
                  • Aug 2017
                  • 24

                  #9
                  Off to get a fuel pressure gauge

                  OK, I'll pick up an inline fuel pressure gauge and put it just downstream from the facet.

                  I tried putting the intake line for the facet into a can of fresh, clean fuel, taking the fuel filter out of the picture. I disconnected the output line and ran it into a cup. I disconnected the distributor wire so the engine wouldn't start and hotwired the facet. After a few seconds a dribble of gas came through and then I started timing. After three minutes I had about an ounce of fuel in the cup. So that extrapolates to 20 ounces an hour, probably not nearly enough.

                  My batteries are not in the best of condition, but have had enough voltage to turn over and start the engine about 30 times in the last two days. Is the facet fuel pump extremely sensitive to low voltage? It clicks along just fine and delivers a small amount of fuel, but maybe it should be clicking much faster and louder. I don't know, I never listened to a known good facet run.

                  Off to the auto parts place to pick up a fuel pressure gauge.

                  Comment

                  • Oldlaxer1
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2014
                    • 189

                    #10
                    Here is a short video of what type of flow you can expect from the Facet. This was after replacing all hoses and filters which is why it took a while for the fuel to get to the pan.
                    John Novotny
                    1973 Tartan 30 #186
                    Baltimore, MD

                    Comment

                    • Peter
                      Afourian MVP
                      • Jul 2016
                      • 296

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Neuse River Sailor View Post
                      So that extrapolates to 20 ounces an hour, probably not nearly enough.
                      For a 2.0-3.5 PSI cube Facet pump, the free flow rate is listed at 15 gallons per hour.

                      See https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalo...hp?recfer=4141

                      Peter

                      Comment

                      • ndutton
                        Afourian MVP
                        • May 2009
                        • 9601

                        #12
                        Have we determined there is no issue on the intake side of the fuel pump? Any restriction, clog or air leak there can produce the same symptom. I suggest trying to pump from one bucket to another eliminating the boat's fuel system from the test. If you have the same poor volume, the pump is the problem. If the volume is much improved, the boat's fuel system is the problem.
                        Neil
                        1977 Catalina 30
                        San Pedro, California
                        prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                        Had my hands in a few others

                        Comment

                        • joe_db
                          Afourian MVP
                          • May 2009
                          • 4474

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Neuse River Sailor View Post
                          OK, I'll pick up an inline fuel pressure gauge and put it just downstream from the facet.

                          I tried putting the intake line for the facet into a can of fresh, clean fuel, taking the fuel filter out of the picture. I disconnected the output line and ran it into a cup. I disconnected the distributor wire so the engine wouldn't start and hotwired the facet. After a few seconds a dribble of gas came through and then I started timing. After three minutes I had about an ounce of fuel in the cup. So that extrapolates to 20 ounces an hour, probably not nearly enough.

                          My batteries are not in the best of condition, but have had enough voltage to turn over and start the engine about 30 times in the last two days. Is the facet fuel pump extremely sensitive to low voltage? It clicks along just fine and delivers a small amount of fuel, but maybe it should be clicking much faster and louder. I don't know, I never listened to a known good facet run.

                          Off to the auto parts place to pick up a fuel pressure gauge.
                          Now you need a voltmeter!
                          Joe Della Barba
                          Coquina
                          C&C 35 MK I
                          Maryland USA

                          Comment

                          • joe_db
                            Afourian MVP
                            • May 2009
                            • 4474

                            #14
                            Originally posted by ndutton View Post
                            Have we determined there is no issue on the intake side of the fuel pump? Any restriction, clog or air leak there can produce the same symptom. I suggest trying to pump from one bucket to another eliminating the boat's fuel system from the test. If you have the same poor volume, the pump is the problem. If the volume is much improved, the boat's fuel system is the problem.
                            And a vacuum gauge too
                            Joe Della Barba
                            Coquina
                            C&C 35 MK I
                            Maryland USA

                            Comment

                            • Oldlaxer1
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2014
                              • 189

                              #15
                              Originally posted by joe_db View Post
                              And a vacuum gauge too
                              Joe, can you explain the vacuum gauge as it relates to the A4. I'm not clear where or what we should be measuring.
                              Thanks
                              John Novotny
                              1973 Tartan 30 #186
                              Baltimore, MD

                              Comment

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