Oil Leaking From Oil Pressure Valve ???

[JGiffing]

Hi All:

First, I am a long time sailor but a new member of this forum.
I have been an off and on "lurker" of this site for years and have learned a tremendous amount from reading relevant posts and applying the learnings.

I never wanted to be an engine mechanic - I just want to sail - but lack of millions $$$$ and a penchant for classic boats have forced me to learn.

That all said, I started my 1977 late model engine for the first time this season last week (I know, it's July!) and after a minute or two of running, I looked in the engine compartment and freaked out when I saw oil running out from under the engine.

At the time, I thought I was loosing quarts in a such a short time and immediately shut the engine down in fear of the engine seizing up.

I calmed down and started looking the engine over and could not easily find where the leak was coming from other than it looked like it was coming from the carb side of the engine... but wasn't sure. At this point I had convinced my self that I had to pull the engine and have it overhauled!!!

So I did what I always do when I get challenged by this engine. I went home, got a drink and started searching this site. Sure enough I found posts and guidance on locating and dealing with oil leaks. Armed with this information, last night I went back to the boat, checked the oil level and added about 1/2 pint (oil that is). cleaned up all around the engine and underneath, laid out some absorbent pads as a dam against entering the bilge, and cranked up the engine.

Before I never paid much attention to the oil pressure other than to make sure I had some... but at start I noticed I had about 50-55 psi... which I think is about normal if memory serves me right. I then immediately looked down in the engine compartment.

It took about 30 seconds to a minute before I saw any oil running out but it was not the gusher that I remembered from a few days prior... but it was a steady little stream. I jumped down into the cabin with a light to see where it was coming from and it appears to be running forward from the oil pressure adjustment value to a around the oil pan drain plug and down under the engine to drip off onto the inside of the hull.

I double checked that the drain plug was tight so I am pretty confident no leak there. Not knowing much about the Pressure Valve, I did not adjust it or touch it other than to wipe it off.

By the time I shut the engine down... 5-10 minutes at most... I might have lost a pint... maybe a pint and a half... not the quarts I originally feared.

So long story getting here...
So why am I now getting leakage around this valve?

More importantly, what is my best remedy?
- Do I start by just tightening the lock nut? If it will tighten...
- Do I need to replace a washer under the nut?
- Do I need to pull and re-seat the valve?
- Do I need to replace the valve with a new kit?
- Or, something else?

I will likely head back to the marina Friday evening where the boat has been stuck for various reasons (an even longer story for another time) and I would like to understand the right course of action so I can move on to whatever next challenge this little engine will pose to me.

Hey, thanks for reading.. I hope I get some good answers... actually based on my prior readings, I am sure I will!

Jim
S/V Strong Tower
1977 C&C 29 Mk1

[Ken Rockwell]

Sounds like a bad O-ring or gasket. Be cautious about over tightening. Send a picture if you can. Mine is apart so I might be able to check it out before I give advice.

[JGiffing]

I carefully put moderate pressure on my ratchet and got less than an 1/8" movement. It looks like this.


I still have some flow but I think it is less. I also noticed a weeping in the following location below the valve cover... what is this screw?


I was able with some difficulty to get a screw driver on this screw through the carb and was able to put a 1/8" turn on it. I think weeping has stopped here.

On a separate visit, I put a socket on anything on the carb side, fuel pump, rear housing, and carefully (moderate strength) made sure they were not loose - I got a little movement here and there but not enough I would think to fix.... we'll see. I was going to test again, but needed to replace my supply of absorbent pads which I did this evening. Given that it drips off the engine in one location, I think I may also use a flat plastic container under the engine to catch the oil so I can get a better measure of volume. Hoping to re-test in the next couple of days.

This is all weird since this engine never leaked a drop before. I hope the pix help.

Thanks for any input you can provide,
Jim

[Clucas]

Following.

[Ken Rockwell]

I'm going to guess the valve cover gasket is bad. But I'll look at my block and see if I have the same screw. Mine is a little older and may not. But if you're sure it's the screw, I would take it out and put a tiny
o-ring around the shank. Don't put any gasket maker or teflon tape. Same goes for the valve cover gasket, if that turns out to be the problem. Kinda sounds like the valve cover gasket is made or cork and possibly shrunk from sitting and swelled after you ran it.

[JGiffing]

Thanks, Ken.

I plan to head to the boat Friday evening and will try out your suggestion.
Will post results.

[JGiffing]

Hi all:

It took me a week to get back to the boat and do some more troubleshooting.

- Checked and topped off the oil
- Checked around the valve cover and was able to tighten the two bolts although I saw no evidence of oil from around the valve cover.
- Was also able to put another 1/8 of a turn on the "mysterious brass screw" (picture in previous post above) below the valve cover, behind the carb.
- placed a small aluminum foil plan 8x8x2 under the engine and located it where oil previously dripped off the oil pan.
- refreshed my absorbent oil pads.
- started the engine and let it fully warm up and run for close to 30 minutes.
- Oil pressure stayed between 40 - 60 psi depending on engine speed.
- Kept looking for where the oil was dripping from on and off during the 30 minutes.
- The steady drip filled the foil pan with oil in that 30 minute period.
- Shutdown the engine and let things cool off.
- Still had oil leaking from the "mysterious brass screw" area but not as much as before ... I removed the screw and this is what it looks like.



Again, wish I knew what this is.. and what to call it.... but I do have leaks around it! And, not sure whether I can put a o-ring as was suggested, or use plumbing sealant on it.

NEW REVELATION --- I smelled gas in the oil that dripped into the foil pan.. not strong but noticeable.

Do I need to replace a gasket between fuel pump and block? (It is right over the oil pressure valve and could mask where the real leak is... hard to tell since I cannot see back there too well...

If so, maybe it would also solve another problem! The engine was not idling well. In fact I could not get it to stay at idle. Instead, it cycled through a period of what sounded like fuel starvation followed by running well. If I lowered the throttle too much it would die during the starvation part of the cycle... but the engine would fight to stay running... I figured it was just old gas that needed to get out of the system... also had a few pops which I thought might be water getting past the racor... but now I am not sure. And think it may be part of the same oil leak (gasket?) problem.. would like to hear what folks think on this....

I also removed the oil pressure valve - it all came out together as the locking nut is rusted/fused to the actual pressure valve adjustment shank. The spring came out easy and I thought I heard the ball bearing roll out but I could not find it after looking all over and reaching under the engine with my hand.. it should have landed in the foil pan along with the oil... or stopped rolling into the bilge by all the absorbent pads... ???

I took a small screw driver first (pictured below) and reached in but the handle kept me from touching anything.. thought it would though... then I tried the 12v probe - since it has a pointy tip - from my toolkit (also pictured) and could not feel anything that felt like a ball bearing.. not sure whether it is still in the engine or where it ended up but I need to make sure it is out of the block I put in a new valve... any ideas on verifying the ball is out?



At this point, I had to end my adventures for the weekend and head home.

Any further ideas, comments or recommendations would be appreciated... as it would be nice to leave the slip and do some sailing before the season is over.

Thanks!

[Tim]

The mystery screw is a plug that leads to the oil galley that distributes oil throughout the engine. Make sure it is in good condition, make sure the threads on the block that it goes into are in good condition and re install the plug with some sealant. Loctite would probably be a good idea since you definitely do not want the plug to come loose.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by JGiffing

.. not sure whether it is still in the engine or where it ended up but I need to make sure it is out of the block I put in a new valve... any ideas on verifying the ball is out?

Get one of those telescoping magnetic tools and probe around?
https://www.amazon.com/TEKTON-7601-T.../dp/B000NPPC00

You need to find where that ball is...

[sastanley]

Hi & Welcome to the dark side, former lurker!

The gas smell could be from a failed diaphragm in your mechanical fuel pump..it dumps into the crankcase by design if the diaphragm develops a tear/leak or otherwise fails. I can see from your first picture that you have a mechanical fuel pump (shiny bale and gold cup). Rebuild kits are reasonably priced and easy to do on the bench. There are two bolts holding the pump to the block. You will also find a loose pushrod between the block & pump housing once you separate it from the engine.

If you have fuel in your oil, it could be thinning the oil out if it is managing to mix together, which might be allowing the oil to get around seals it could not before it was thinned out with fuel. That is my theory.

edit - for the oil pressure ball, you can crank the engine with the starter and the ball should roll out in your hand/catch pan - Disconnect the main spark plug wire from the coil so the engine doesn't start.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Put a rag or pan under the hole for the oil pressure adjust device. Start the engine. If the oil pressure does not blow he ball out it is already out.
I hear baby diapers work as good as oil adsorb pads. Might be cheaper.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: Shawn beat me to it.

[JGiffing]

Thanks All for some great ideas for new things to try!

I did not think of the fuel thinning out the oil... but makes sense...

Will try the two ideas for making sure I get that ball out...

I guess I will be calling Ken and ordering some more parts.

In the next day or two.

Again, thanks!

[sastanley]

Jim..no guarantees, that is just my theory.

The gas smell in the crankcase may be a totally separate symptom you just happened to notice messing around with the engine trying to stop the oil leak..the two may or may not be related. I've had this happen before too to me. I took the manifold off one winter to make more space in the engine locker to squeeze a water tank past, and one of the manifold studs crumbled to dust when I tried to remove it..That explained a slow loss of coolant I had been chasing and unable to identify the cause for months. . It hadn't occurred to me that a failing stud (thru the water jacket) would be the reason for a slowly dropping antifreeze level in the HX. Two totally unrelated issues, but in my case, one bit of work uncovered a problem I probably would not have been able to solve otherwise.

Usually, when a diaphragm goes bad, the oil level in the crankcase appears to rise with the addition of the fuel in there..in your case, since you are profusely leaking it out, this will be hard to judge. If it were me, I'd just take the pump off and add the rebuild kti to the "Ken list" out of principle...especially if you don't know the pump's age/status. If we are lucky, you'll find a puncture during teardown.

I know none of this particular discussion solves the oil leaks yet..Once you have all the oil pressure parts out and cleaned up, lets take a few pics on a nicely lit work bench or something for further diagnosis.

[JGiffing]

Here's a little update.

I got my fuel pump rebuild kit and new oil pressure value on Friday.
I had already pulled the pump from the boat and brought it home.
What a wonderful suggestion to do this on the bench at home. I can't imagine trying to do this on the boat.

This is what the pump looked like when I started.


It took me several hours just to work the screws out to separate the top and bottom sections and I only had to destroy one screw. I went to hardware store and bought all new screws and I decided to get hex heads just in case I need to do a rebuild again.

Here is what the diaphragm looked like when I removed it. I don't think there was a tear or leak but who knows... just glad to have this pump rebuilt.



After disassembling everything, I spent a fair amount of time cleaning all the parts. I even used my dremel tool with sanding disk to clean off the rust and gunk outside and also carefully cleaned off any remaining gasket materials.

When done cleaning, I repainted the outside of the pump before reassembling. This is what it looks like now.



I will go remount it on the boat some evening this week.
I will also re-insert the little brass screw and the oil pressure valve first since it will all be easier to get access to with the pump off.

I also plan to take some pics of the side of the engine before remounting to make sure everything looks ok before remounting.

Again, thanks and I will update again later in the week.

Jim