Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 74.41.85.54
Old 05-14-2009, 09:27 AM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
New gauge readings

Hey guys!

I have a quick question. I installed new oil preussure, water temp, voltmeter and fuel gauges on my Catalina 30.

I started the engine this past weekend using a 5 gallon bucket of water. I noticed that the fuel gauge and voltmeter were working, but the temp and pressure gauges were both pegged.

Is this normal when starting up, I don't remember as I just bought the boat last September. The gauges ran normal the few times I used the motor before pulling her out for the winter.

I replaced the gauges and sending units with new Stewart Warner gauges from Moyer as an FYI.

Am I missing something or they settle down to their normal operating range once the engine warms up. Obviously, only 5 gallons of water isn't a lot of time. But it seems to me that when I start my car the oil pressure goes right to normal the temp gauge creeps up from cold to normal in a few seconds and this should be how the boat gauges should act.

Thanks
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 05-14-2009, 10:35 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Chris, I think that usually indicates a ground problem on the gauge. I would try a jumper wire to the ground on the affected gauge(s) to a known good ground source first. If the gauges are grouped together, they probably have a common ground anyway

Once you get them working, take some pics! - I have a Catalina 30 and plan to replace most of the gauges as well, someday.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 192.60.230.178
Old 05-14-2009, 10:40 AM
High Hopes's Avatar
High Hopes High Hopes is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Hello chris,

You're missing the gauge grounds or you have open transducer circuits. The gauges should read accurately within seconds of turning on the ignition switch. The drawing below may help.

Steve
Attached Images
 
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 74.41.85.54
Old 05-14-2009, 12:08 PM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
rats...

I think you guys are right. My original setup was for an ammeter in the panel, but Stu Jackson from the Catalina forums convinced me this was a dangerous setup, so I pulled it and put in a voltmeter.

The voltmeter works, but I must not have hooked the grounds from the other 2 gauges back up correctly. The fuel gauge works because the ground from the tank goes directly to a NDP...

Darn panel is siliconed back in place...for the second time! Oh well.



I ordered the panel using some nice software that cut the holes and engraved it. I saw it in Sail Magazine, Front Panel Design in Seattle, WA. Still need to clean up the excess silicone.

Fair prices and fast service. I used the original engine pod, I'm going to sand it and repaint next year and it should look brand new!

Thanks for the input, and I guess I'm pulling the panel....again.
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 64.231.83.142
Old 05-14-2009, 05:57 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Nice looking panel you got there dude!

What was the reason for the change from ampmeter to voltmeter? Curious about what the "danger" is?
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 70.108.209.78
Old 05-14-2009, 09:32 PM
High Hopes's Avatar
High Hopes High Hopes is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Chris,

Awesome panel!

You may want ot test your gauge panel before you glue it back in.

I'm not sure I'd call an ammeter dangerous. But everyone has switched to just voltmeters, so I went with the flow, too.

Steve

Last edited by High Hopes; 05-14-2009 at 09:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 142.68.105.35
Old 05-15-2009, 05:11 AM
rigspelt's Avatar
rigspelt rigspelt is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,187
Thanks: 0
Thanked 19 Times in 17 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
What was the reason for the change from ampmeter to voltmeter? Curious about what the "danger" is?
[Not a mechanic or engineer, just an amateur boater.]

I wondered about this too. Our old boat and many like it apparently went decades with that long heavy wire run to an ammeter at the cockpit ignition panel, branching back forward with two heavy wires, one for house and one for engine, including recharging for the battery (alternator output runs all the way aft to the ammeter in the ignition panel, then forward again to the engine and battery).

I was just reading about this issue on an auto forum a few days ago, where I got the sense that in the auto world they also may have shifted from that kind of ammeter wiring to voltmeters and much shorter main distribution wires for engine and "house" circuits.

Some disadvantages of ignition panel ammeters, according to my reading using Google:
- Increased risk of shorts causing fires over those longer wire runs in vehicles (I have no idea how big a risk this is).
- Increased distance and number of connections and therefore risk of poor connections degrading alternator output to the battery and other electronics.
- Ammeter reads zero if the alternator has failed and is not charging, and if everything is working but the net current flow happens to be zero.

Some reading that may be of interest (random finds with Google, cannot vouch for validity):
http://www.egauges.com/ATM_Tips.asp?...terammeter.htm
http://www.hummerknowledgebase.com/parts/voltamm.html
http://holdenpaedia.oldholden.com/Voltmeter_vs_ammeter

My new wiring has an 8" run of cable from the alternator to the Batt post on the solenoid, replacing the original 16 foot round trip run of heavy wires. Now I have a simpler voltmeter in the panel that tells me if the engine circuit has too little or too much voltage, there is less current draw aft to the ignition panel, and we have separate engine and house circuits. This design does not, however, eliminate the need for a 16' round trip for power from the Batt terminal of the solenoid to the ignition key in the cockpit and back to the engine via the purple ignition ciruit. It only shortens that run for the house supply, and the battery recharge from the alternator.
__________________
1974 C&C 27
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 75.196.231.143
Old 05-15-2009, 08:52 AM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
Quote:
I ordered the panel using some nice software that cut the holes and engraved it. I saw it in Sail Magazine, Front Panel Design in Seattle, WA.
That panel is really something! Great find!

Here's the link to the company.

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 192.60.230.178
Old 05-15-2009, 03:02 PM
High Hopes's Avatar
High Hopes High Hopes is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Dear "Not a mechanic or engineer, just an amateur boater,"

I read your last message carefully and I think you may benefit, if may be so bold, from a few tips. Therefore, with best intents forward, here are a few concepts that may allay your concerns.

(1) Signaling and Power Devices: Electricity can be used to transport power or it can be used to transmit signals.

There is no electrical "power" needed for the A-4, except for the starter motor. By power, I mean many Watts (Volts x Amps). The ignition coil draws a few amps and the gauge lamps draw, maybe, 1/3 amp each. With a crank start, the A-4 would run just fine off eight flashlight D cells and a tiny alternator.

Signaling devices use electrical currents to encode information. Operationally, all of the gauges on our boats are identical internally. Only the sending units and the scales are different. There is negligible power associated with signaling devices as the intent is to use only as much power as needed to provide the information (temperature, pressure, fuel, depth, etc.).

There are two items on the engine that are somewhere in between a signaling device and a power device. A solenoid can be thought of as a power device in that it works a bendix and switch. This requires mechanical energy. But, it is also a signaling device in that it signals the starter motor, a power device, to do work.

An ammeter is a signaling device as it provides information. But the curious thing about it, is that it has to carry the power it is measuring to be able to measure it. It, itself, consumes little power.

So. . .

Tip: Do not worry about the solenoid power. It draws 1/10 of the power that the starter motor requires. If the battery can power the starter motor, it will certainly power the solenoid. With the starter motor running and drawing 120 amps, the solenoid is just a signaling device. The rating of a wire is spec’d at continuous use. Solenoids circuits do not have time to get hot. Your starter motor will chew your battery up before that can happen. This is not a critical item.

Tip: An ammeter, although a signaling device, still requires power rated wiring as it carries the alternator charging currents that will recharge the battery. Installing an ammeter introduces additional expenses for heavier circuit wiring than that needed for a voltmeter. This is why they are being abandoned. You decide.

Tip: Do not worry about the wire run length too much. Other than beefy wires for the starter motor, none of the runs on your boat, even up and down a mast, will introduce more than 1/10 of an ohm. Copper wire is a VERY good conductor.


(2) Battery Resistance: Batteries do not lose volts; the just develop resistance. Charging a battery takes resistance out of the battery (it’s a chemistry thing).

In high current circuits, the circuit resistance is low. Internal battery resistance becomes a problem when the load that it is trying to service has a resistance on par with the battery. When the internal battery resistance and the external battery resistances are equal, output voltage at the battery terminals is halved. “Inside” the wet cells are still operating at 2 volts each (it’s a physics thing). This is why a GPS and VHF Radio work fine even when the battery “doesn’t have enough juice” to turn the engine over. The GPS and VHF Radio get 12 volts, the starter sees six.

Tip: Putting unequally charged batteries in parallel and charging them together is a fine idea. The weak battery will not draw down the stronger battery. The weaker the weaker battery, the higher its internal resistance, and the less current it can draw (or “take in”). It therefore cannot steal much power from the alternator away from the good battery. Don't be afraid to use the BOTH position on the battery switch or install an ACR.

Tip: On my boat, things like the UHF radio and GPS had grossly overrated fuses. The radio draws 2-3 amps in transmit mode, but uses a ten amp fuse. I cannot draw more than three amps with the GPS at full screen brightness, yet it uses a 7-amp fuse. Navigation lamps were drawing less than six amps, and a 15-amp fuse was installed. Do not make the mistake I did of using the fuse size as an indicator of device current requirements. Use appropriately sized fuses for actual current loads. Keep low power devices at low power. Any excess current draw above nominal conditions is making something hot – a no no.

Hindsight: If I had it do it all over again, I would have bought a one spool of #14 wire and used it for every circuit except the starter motor circuit. In my calculations, I could not find any other significant “power” device on the boat. Next to the starter circuit (120 amps), the highest rated circuit I found was for the cabin lamps (12 amps). Now where did I put those D cells?

Cheers!

Steve

Last edited by High Hopes; 05-15-2009 at 03:13 PM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 05-15-2009, 03:53 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Red face Gages

team 118, I have run into a similar situation trouble shooting around the marina or boat yard many times. Most marine gages are supplied with a ground wire. A lot of automotive type gages are supplied without a ground wire as they are grounded via the mounting bracket itself, ie the gage is the ground connection so you may need to ground the gage. I have also seen the lighting supplied with a ground wire and/or grounded through the mount. The lighting is usually a separate connection to accomodate dimming the light.

Nice panel BTW

Hope this may be of some help.
Dave Neptune 1970 E-35MkII original A-4 still ticking
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 72.230.130.200
Old 05-16-2009, 09:40 PM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Some great help

Thanks guys.

The reason I changed the ammeter was because I have read a lot of literature about running so many amps through the ammeter and back again through a 10awg wire. Rather than beef the wire up, I changed out to a voltmeter.

I'll run the ammeter closer the battery another day.

I think it may be the ground from the harness. Before with the ammter was installed, there is a grounding wire from the harness to the gauge. Now it runs from the voltmeter and is bolted to the engine.

The rest of the grounds rund to a dedicated negative bus and then to the engine.

Would this have an effect on the gauges?
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 69.251.211.217
Old 05-17-2009, 06:44 PM
MikeB.330's Avatar
MikeB.330 MikeB.330 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 247
Thanks: 0
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
you could always use a Link 10 or some other battery monitor that uses a shunt. doing so would avoid having to run large cable to the gauge. With this type of system you are not running any current through the gauge itself.

www.xantrex.com/web/id/237/p/1/pt/5/product.asp


and the one newmar sells.
http://www.newmarpower.com/Digital_I...struments.html

and the manual for the Nemar DCE
www.newmarpower.com/pdf/Manual-DCE.pdf

Mike

Last edited by MikeB.330; 05-17-2009 at 06:56 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 72.230.130.200
Old 05-27-2009, 09:46 PM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Still no dice....

The boat was launched yesterday.

The gauges are still pegged with the exception of the Fuel Gauge and the Voltmeter.

I ran a jumper from the Oil Pressure gauge ground directly to the battery and it still remained pegged. Both the Oil and Water Temp gauges are brand new along with their sensors.

I have a thought thought. The Fuel Gauge housing is plastic, the other guages are metal.

The new panel is made of aluminum. Would this effect the gauges no matter how I ground them? This is driving me crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 64.231.127.244
Old 05-27-2009, 10:02 PM
67c&ccorv's Avatar
67c&ccorv 67c&ccorv is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: London, ON
Posts: 1,559
Thanks: 4
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by team118 View Post
The boat was launched yesterday.

The gauges are still pegged with the exception of the Fuel Gauge and the Voltmeter.

I ran a jumper from the Oil Pressure gauge ground directly to the battery and it still remained pegged. Both the Oil and Water Temp gauges are brand new along with their sensors.

I have a thought thought. The Fuel Gauge housing is plastic, the other guages are metal.

The new panel is made of aluminum. Would this effect the gauges no matter how I ground them? This is driving me crazy.
When you replaced the sending units on the engine what did you use to seal the threads?

I would suggest checking the resistance of the sending unit housing to engine block to if you have used a sealant that insulates the unit from the block.

Last edited by 67c&ccorv; 05-27-2009 at 10:06 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 70.108.226.115
Old 05-28-2009, 12:10 AM
High Hopes's Avatar
High Hopes High Hopes is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Take the gauge sending wire off the sending unit. Ground the sending wire to the engine block, off and on. This should make the gauge pointer flick back and forth. If it doesn't, the wiring is wrong. If it does, then your sending unit has a problem.

Last edited by High Hopes; 05-28-2009 at 12:13 AM. Reason: oopsy
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 74.41.85.54
Old 05-28-2009, 02:00 PM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm going to try that

I'll disconnect the sending unit and try that. I didn't use any sealant on the sending units, the instructions didn't ask or require sealant....

Do you think the gauges being connected to the panel is grounding all three gauges? I notice the fuel guage works fine, but it is a plastice housing?

Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 70.108.182.137
Old 05-28-2009, 02:07 PM
High Hopes's Avatar
High Hopes High Hopes is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fairfax, VA
Posts: 530
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
On every gauge I have, the case of the gauge is ground. That being said, the ground terminals of the gauges are connected to ground. Use a meter to check for ground and B+ on the gauges. You probably have a wire or two swapped.

Steve
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 72.230.130.200
Old 05-29-2009, 09:27 PM
team118 team118 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 40
Thanks: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
What a dumb frack I am....

The fuel gauge from Telix has the ground on the left terminal, the Stewart Warner gauges are different.

A closer look and I realized as all of you have said....the wires were screwed up!

Well I unscrewed them and lo and behold...gauges that work.

I want to thank all of you for taking the time to help and to check back once and while to keep me honest!

Happy Sailing!
Chris
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 151.200.16.167
Old 05-29-2009, 10:55 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
No worries Chris! That is what we are here for


Don't forget to take some pics for us fellow Catalina owners..I still have the stock (FUNKY) gauge cluster. I recently added a tach and hung it under the counter top down below
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Confusion over engine gauge wiring... team118 Ignition System 19 04-16-2009 09:14 AM
Fuel Gauge Calibration knitchie Fuel System 9 10-10-2008 01:09 PM
Sticky Gauge Pointers High Hopes General Interest 0 05-18-2008 09:33 AM
Temperature gauge problems? omec Cooling System 0 07-16-2007 12:37 PM
Nonfunctioning water temp gauge Unregistered Electrical 4 07-31-2005 11:46 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved