Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Fuel System

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-14-2021, 10:16 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
And Then There Was None

Hey gang,
Here’s the story. Pulling out last year I lost power on the way to the ramp. Had to throttle way up to keep going and when I idled back it died. Acted like a clogged fuel filter so this year I put one one. Nothing. Cranked and no attempt to start but I do have fire.
Pulled the pickup tube and all clear. The filter is right next to the tank and dry as a bone. I blew on the hose through the filter and could hear gurgling in the pump sediment bowl. So assume the line is clear.
Pulled the sediment bowl and brim full.
I’m thinking a bad (mechanical) fuel pump. Motor (and I assume the pump) are 51 years old.
What do you all think?
Thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 24.15.212.17
Old 04-15-2021, 05:29 PM
Sam Sam is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 213
Thanks: 181
Thanked 76 Times in 65 Posts
Well, I'll give you the often tested and verified reply. Verify you have a spark or weak spark problem or fuel or fuel delivery issue. Spray some starting fluid into the carb inlet and see if it fires for a sec or two. If it does you have a fuel problem and try running off an auxiliary gas can placed somewhere above the engine and see what happens - fuel, tank, filter, pump problem etc. If it doesn't fire you have a spark issue and need to work backwards through the ignition system as highlighted in many past threads.
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 138.163.128.41
Old 04-15-2021, 07:40 PM
SubtoSail SubtoSail is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Oahu
Posts: 21
Thanks: 2
Thanked 7 Times in 5 Posts
Are you positive the pump is providing fuel?
You could disconnect the carb inlet line and pump the bail on the pump to make sure fuel is getting that far. I have had a priming issue before, got tired of pumping the bail and got an outboard style squeeze bulb to bring fuel to the pump. Once the line upstream of the pump was full of fuel it started right up (I did not leave the bulb in the line).

If you confirm the carb is getting fuel, either by running the pump or with a pressure gauge between the pump and carb, then it's on to the top of the troubleshooting list. Check for spark and compression. If you have points, I've read they usually need a wipe or file for startup after sitting idle.

Many more experienced people will be along to help track down and correct the issue.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-15-2021, 08:44 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Thanks for the replies.
It does fire with ether and Iíve changed it out to electronic ignition and no fire issues since then.
Iím thinking itís either lost prime or not pumping since the pump sediment bowl is full and the fuel filter is completely dry. But I will try pulling the carb line and see if the bail produces gas since the sediment bowl is full.
Alternately the gas can by gravity and see what I get.
Thanks for the great tips.
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 69.250.111.245
Old 04-19-2021, 09:02 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,805
Thanks: 823
Thanked 456 Times in 343 Posts
Lubr,
When I switched to EI I forgot to remember to service the advance weights..If they get stuck in the out (advanced) position because the springs can't pull them back in due to a dry rusty non-lubed environment under the EI plate, it runs great at WOT, but the engine won't idle..

However, you said it ran for a second with motor crack, so I wouldn't blame the weights just yet. Next thing I would do is open the drain plug in the carb bowl and pump a few ounces of fuel into a container with the bale on the mech pump and see what it looks like..sometimes adding a component (fuel filter), or disturbing the fuel lines upstream can dislodge crud and block the little tiny holes in the carb.
If the fuel pump bowl was full after the filter was added, the mech pump should fill the filter before the carb burns all the fuel in the pump.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 04-19-2021 at 09:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-19-2021, 09:07 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
sastanley,
great input about the carb bowl. I'll give that a try. Any hint is helpful and that's a good one to narrow down the cause. I'm sure it's going to be fuel by the way it acts but narrowing that down is a new one on me.
Thanks again.
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 134.41.87.78
Old 04-20-2021, 04:29 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,383
Thanks: 192
Thanked 299 Times in 208 Posts
Sort of a lot going on there.

I'll chime in my 2 cents. Generally if the manual pump develops a small hole in the diaphragm you will have longer turn over starting periods...getting harder and harder to start as the old diaphragm fails more and more. Have you experienced that?

Secondly, you might note a different smell upon entering the boat. Almost the smell of oil but a hint of gas. If you smell something like that pull the dipstick and smell the oil. If you find you have a hint of gas smell, it would indicate a failed diaphragm.

Now let backtrack. You removed the pick up tube. Was there any sign of corrosion on the tube itself? If so I'd change that out. Please not that blowing back through the tube from the filter or even the top of the tank and hearing gurgling does not give the pick up tube a pass. It tells you it's clear at the base of the tube, but can't tell you if there is a pin hole.

Have you ensured all hoses are back on correctly, all clamps tight, all filter seals are sealed tight and that the old seal wasn't left on there if changing the racor or something like one.

Someone mentioned good spark...that's the first thing you would have needed to sort out so I figure you went there.

So basically, you need fuel pressure to the carb. Once you have gone through and checked everything. So take the carb apart and using the exact right size flat head screw driver remove the jets, clean them, soak everything with carb cleaner and blow compressed air though all the passages and jets. (we can go through more detail on that). Pay particular attention to the main jet.

Now for the kicker. Since the boat hasn't run since last year do a compression check...we need intake air, compression, spark and fuel. It might be a combination of things. We can play for days focused on one issue when it could be a combination of things.

All the best. We'll all be hanging around here to help.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-27-2021, 02:10 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Latest update: pulled the pickup and all clean, clear and no pinholes.
The pump sediment bowl is full but pulling the bowl bolt off the carb shows zero fuel. Also the pump bail moves just a bit, very stiff, and no fuel.
Going to pull the pump and inspect but Iím pretty sure itís the culprit.
A mechanic buddy is going to help and has a 3psi electric we can use to bypass and verify itís the pump.
Oh I also verified the vent hose is clear.
Thanks for the good advice. More to come and hopefully a good result soon.
PS Mo -yes it has always been slow to start. Usually have to use some starting fluid even after warmed up. Rebuild of the starter helped spin it better but I suspect your suspicions are correct.
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 134.41.87.78
Old 04-27-2021, 08:36 PM
Mo's Avatar
Mo Mo is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Halifax NS,
Posts: 4,383
Thanks: 192
Thanked 299 Times in 208 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lubrdink View Post
Latest update: pulled the pickup and all clean, clear and no pinholes.
The pump sediment bowl is full but pulling the bowl bolt off the carb shows zero fuel. Also the pump bail moves just a bit, very stiff, and no fuel.
Going to pull the pump and inspect but I’m pretty sure it’s the culprit.
A mechanic buddy is going to help and has a 3psi electric we can use to bypass and verify it’s the pump.
Oh I also verified the vent hose is clear.
Thanks for the good advice. More to come and hopefully a good result soon.
PS Mo -yes it has always been slow to start. Usually have to use some starting fluid even after warmed up. Rebuild of the starter helped spin it better but I suspect your suspicions are correct.
Yeah, sounds like pump failure. I replaced the mechanical pumps on a few with an electric pump. Some were 4 to 7 psi, all that was available on short notice and they did fine as well. Change the oil when you sort it out as well...there will be gas in the oil if the pump went and kill it's viscosity. I've used diesel 15w40 for years...great for that engine. Since a gear head is going to have a look you should ask him if he has a compression gauge and check compression as well...just for fun, takes 15 minutes.
__________________
Mo

"Odyssey"
1976 C&C 30 MKI

The pessimist complains about the wind.
The optimist expects it to change.
The realist adjusts the sails.
...Sir William Arthur Ward.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Mo For This Useful Post:
Lubrdink (04-29-2021), sastanley (04-27-2021)
  #10   IP: 69.250.111.245
Old 04-27-2021, 10:26 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,805
Thanks: 823
Thanked 456 Times in 343 Posts
Mo has a good point.. By design, if the mech pump diaphragm fails, it is supposed to dump the fuel into the crankcase rather than the bilge..less of a fire hazard that way..good idea to check the oil and if you smell any fuel or the level is up, change the oil too.

I personally like the simplicity of the mech fuel pump, so I rebuilt mine..One thing I did was remove the rigid fuel lines between the pump & carb, and made all of them out of A-1 (ethanol tolerant) fuel hose and nipples and clamps and added an inline filter like Moyer sells, and fuel pressure gauge.
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 04-27-2021 at 10:30 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
chapster5 (04-28-2021), Lubrdink (04-29-2021)
  #11   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-30-2021, 05:33 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Found it

Found the problem but dogged if I can figure out how to post a pic.
Suffice to say Iíve ordered the Moyer fuel pump rebuild kit.
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 04-30-2021, 05:41 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 392
Thanks: 96
Thanked 193 Times in 144 Posts
To upload a pic, us the paperclip button and upload away. That will work, but the insert image button IME never does.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ronstory For This Useful Post:
Lubrdink (04-30-2021)
  #13   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 04-30-2021, 07:04 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Broken spring on the pivot arm. A wonder it ran at all after it broke. Made it from the slip to the ramp and then started again to winterize. But thatís all she wrote.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 05-08-2021, 09:37 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Fixed

Used the Moyer rebuild kit. Here’s some pics of the old and new. Not bad for a 50 y/o pump. Might have been rebuilt before but was awhile back if so. Put it on the old A4 and used the primer bail. Pumped fuel all through to the carb and I would have started it up but the dang batteries were both dead.
My ol granny used to say “if it ain’t one thing it’s another”. So now charging the batteries but I think the fuel problems fixed.
Thanks all for your comments.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70

Last edited by Lubrdink; 05-08-2021 at 09:41 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Lubrdink For This Useful Post:
sastanley (05-12-2021)
  #15   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 05-08-2021, 09:39 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
The new stuff
Attached Images
 
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lubrdink For This Useful Post:
sastanley (05-12-2021), Surcouf (05-09-2021)
  #16   IP: 69.250.111.245
Old 05-12-2021, 10:59 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 6,805
Thanks: 823
Thanked 456 Times in 343 Posts
Looks great, Lubr!!
__________________
-Shawn
"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 107.137.32.141
Old 05-13-2021, 09:26 PM
Lubrdink's Avatar
Lubrdink Lubrdink is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2021
Location: Topeka, KS
Posts: 20
Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Final post...I hope

So after the rebuild it runs when pumped up manually but then goes dry. My mechanic buddy thinks maybe the gasket is holding it out far enough the shaft isnít pushing the diaphragm. So he and I go out and heís sure thatís not it. But there is a lot of play before the shaft engages the rocker.
So we take it apart and redo the springs then back together. Still no luck (after a side trip to figure out why the electronic ignition stopped. Another thread).
Finally Dave says, ďyou know, my old tractor doesnít like any minor changes in the fuel flow. Do you suppose that new sediment bowl screen they added could be it.Ē I doubt it, but letís pull it out.
Runs like a dream. Tossing this little gem. Canít believe it but the proof is in the pudding.
Thanks for all your help gang.
Attached Images
 
__________________
Lubrdink
1970 Newport 27
Original A4
S/V Glenn E honoring SSGT Glenn English, Jr
Posthumous Medal of Honor 9/7/70
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:37 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universalģ is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2021 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved