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  #1   IP: 69.180.172.59
Old 07-27-2014, 03:33 PM
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New Purchase Due-Diligence

Hello-

I'm a new member to the forum but have used all of you as a resource on my previous boat with atomic 4. Looking at a new purchase, early 70's Tartan. I was a little disappointed with the condition of the atomic 4. Heavy corrosion on the head and plugs. Oil was jet black, but no signs of water. Pictures are attached.

Not certain when last this boat was in the water, but could have been as long as summer 2011.

I am curoius what you think of the photos, particularly the cylinder head, and any recommended due-dilligence before purchasing. Any way to determine if this is a simple, new plugs, plug wires, oil change and corrosion removal type of tune-up, or signs of more serious issues?

Didn't have a lot of tools with me at the time. Should I insist on a compression test?

Also, is it helpful to remove the head to take a peek inside before buying and if so, would this require replacing the head gasket or using a liquid sealer when reinstalling?

I'm not a motor-head, but can use a wrench. Thanks for the help!
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Old 07-27-2014, 07:46 PM
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There are many well informed and experienced people here to answer your question. Unlucky for you, I'm not one of them!

But, fwiw, these are very hearty little engines, take a beating and keep on ticking. I didn't see any pictures, but don't let a little rust get in the way.

It's simple and easy enough to put a compression gauge on and I would insist on it. But again, stuck valves, rings will give you awful readings but these things are often fixed pretty quickly and cheaply. Can you say Marvel Mystery Oil?

My A 4 is from 1966 and with the help of these guys, she is running like a champ. I have great compression - 105 across all four, have replaced or rebuilt everything on the outside (alternator, starter, carb, distrib) but nothing on the inside.

There's a lot of metal there, so they can take a lot of rust.

I look forward to hearing the responses from the guys that really know.

Best of luck.

Skywalker
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  #3   IP: 24.152.131.153
Old 07-27-2014, 08:35 PM
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I'd insist on two tests, both non-invasive:
  1. Compression test
  2. Cooling system pressure test
Anything not uncovered by those two tests should be easy to fix. A word of caution though - if the engine has been neglected, what's that say about the rest of the boat? The sale price should reflect the care or lack of same by the previous owner.

Good luck and welcome.
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  #4   IP: 71.12.227.175
Old 07-27-2014, 10:38 PM
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SR,
Welcome to the forum.
I also own a Tartan (30, '79) w/ A4. One of the upsides of these boats is the great access to the engine. If you do decide to dig in, you'll be pleased w/ that.

No photos in your post, but looking forward to seeing em. (even if you don't end up getting the boat)
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  #5   IP: 69.180.172.59
Old 07-27-2014, 11:12 PM
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OK, now the photos are attached. Newbie mistake. You can see the extent of the plug corrosion.

One of my fears is will the plugs even turn out of the head?

I'll have to research as I do not know the procedure for a cooling system pressure test.

My old boat was a C&C 27 with very small and hardly accessible engine compartment - so the accessible engine on the tartan was a great sight (until I got the cover off).
Attached Images
  
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  #6   IP: 71.178.96.74
Old 07-27-2014, 11:23 PM
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sailready..welcome. I am no expert on removing ugly old crappy rusted spark plugs, but, I would first shop vac out any loose material, and then see if I could spray some good penetrating oil to help with removal and hopefully avoid breaking plugs.

One of the great home remedies around here is 50/50 acetone and ATF..a small batch of that sitting for a couple days in each plug well may loosen up those plugs nicely...or not. No open flames or anything silly like that around acetone!

Worst case if one breaks off, you have to take the head off, and as Neil notes, any 'extra' work like that should drop the price!
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:37 PM
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Welcome aboard. Yes, by all means soak those plugs with a good penetrating oil prior to an attempt to take them out. They will likely twist off if not soaked. Last ones I touched that looked like that I had to take the torch aboard the boat and heat them and remove. Two or three twisted off and again heat and cold chisel removed them without having to take off the head...all was good and it didn't take long.

I agree with Neil for a compression test and pressure test the cooling system as well. Actually, that engine "looks" no worse than mine LOL ... and mine runs like a top and has since I got the boat...into year 8 with this one.

Take your time, look it all through. Ask the previous owner questions such as:
-how long have you owned the boat
-what work have you done
-what do you think needs to be done
-has he actually worked on the engine or was it just serviced by a yard.

All the Best
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  #8   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 07-27-2014, 11:39 PM
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Looking at the photos, I don't see anything scary there. The stuff around the plugs looks like it came from elsewhere, and will just vacuum out. My plugs have about the same corrosion as those!
The only 'easy' stuff that a compression test will show is bad valves or a bad head gasket.
The only way to find the bad stuff is to run the engine. This is needed to show up bad bearings, bad oil rings, low oil pressure, etc.
Recommend you price your bid on needing a Moyer rebuilt engine. Don't shoot yourself in the foot by buying a dead horse. If the seller expects a good price, the seller should be showing a good product (vs. a questionable piece of iron).
What kind of boat is it? Doesn't look at all like a Tartan 30.
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Old 07-27-2014, 11:48 PM
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Al, good point...isn't a Tartan 30's A4 jammed up just aft of the mast?

Maybe it is a T-34, but I am not very educated on those.

None of that really matters, we just like to try to figure out boats!
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  #10   IP: 174.58.82.173
Old 07-27-2014, 11:58 PM
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That is a picture of a Tartan 34 engine.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mo View Post
Last ones I touched that looked like that I had to take the torch aboard the boat and heat them and remove. Two or three twisted off and again heat and cold chisel removed them without having to take off the head...all was good and it didn't take long.
All the Best
Mo, what was the process for removal with the chisel? I'm having a hard time envisioning how you removed the remaining part of the plug without knocking pieces into the cylinder or damaging threads. Did you tap at an angle to force it to turn?

For those curious, the boat is a Tartan 34c.

By the way, I'm very impressed by the response time and quality suggestions from everyone!
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  #12   IP: 99.124.190.130
Old 07-28-2014, 12:18 AM
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At second look, there's something about the cooling hoses I'd like to trace further. There's that Tee and the ball valve leading to who knows where? These mods seem well done. Seems like someone with some smarts may have had a hand on this engine.
But my previous comment holds - if it isn't running, it's just a block of iron. Last check at the scrap yard was $.07/lb - anyone getting more? At 320 lbs, that about $22 - take it out and it's yours.
However, you and I know these engines are tough to kill. It may look dead, but it's probably just in a coma - talk to it lovingly at it might come back to life. I'd probably take the risk and only deduct half the cost of a Moyer rebuild from the price.
Besides, the Tartan 34 is a nice little ship! Make sure the centerboard works.
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Old 07-28-2014, 12:29 PM
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It does seem like someone put some good work into that engine at some point, (alternator, fuel filter/seperator, couple other mods I can't name) which possibly is/was a good sign for the inside of the engine.

The top of the head looks ok anyway, but not sure if 3 years on the hard would do that to plugs.

Get as much background info as you can, maybe talk to the owner previous to current seller if possible. In the meantime shop vac the rust off & start soaking w/ pb blaster if you do want to get under the plugs. At any rate, the state of the engine could be a bargaining chip for the price of the boat.
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  #14   IP: 216.115.121.240
Old 07-28-2014, 01:21 PM
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Welcome!


Keep a cool head about the purchase. If the engine just needs a bit of love, then you win. If it needs a complete new one(5 to 6 grand) then that should be reflected in the price.

If the seller was not even willing to clean it up to sell, then don't consider it a good engine. In fact it could be a negative on the balance sheet for bargaining the purchase price. Your labor is not free and this will take many hours to clean up. A marine mechanic would charge like the dickens to do all that is needed and you should be compensated at the sale for that; whether you do it or it is hired out.

Tirade over.

Rust doesn't look as bad as mine when I got it. If they won't allow for a complete new engine in the price, then do what Neil said:
"I'd insist on two tests, both non-invasive:
Compression test
Cooling system pressure test"
And I would add to that; Let's hear that baby run!

Cheers,
Russ
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Old 07-28-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sail-ready View Post
Mo, what was the process for removal with the chisel? I'm having a hard time envisioning how you removed the remaining part of the plug without knocking pieces into the cylinder or damaging threads. Did you tap at an angle to force it to turn?

For those curious, the boat is a Tartan 34c.

By the way, I'm very impressed by the response time and quality suggestions from everyone!
Post number 57 (or so) in following thread.
http://www.moyermarine.com//forums/s...arco#post75225
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:27 PM
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[QUOTE=Al Schober;83746]At second look, there's something about the cooling hoses I'd like to trace further. There's that Tee and the ball valve leading to who knows where? These mods seem well done. Seems like someone with some smarts may have had a hand on this engine.
QUOTE]

This boat has a hot water heater... could this be the re-plumbing that I read about in the FAQ section? If so, when running under normal operations and not using the water heater, this valve would remain closed, correct?

I will trace the hose next time I'm at the boat. My offer was accepted and hope to close this saturday. I'm certain I'll be reaching out for more advice - standing by...
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Old 07-30-2014, 10:58 PM
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I think that's the seawater supply line from the seacock. That line tee'd into it could be a bilge water line for use as an extra (emergency) bilge pump. If you find it just goes to a screen pickup sitting in the bilge, then I'm right. If not, then I'm not right

R.
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Last edited by lat 64; 07-30-2014 at 11:00 PM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 07:01 AM
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Be careful about any changes to the exhaust plumbin on the
Tartan 34C make sure nothing is close to the wood enclosure
There is another thread where we discussed using Calcium Silicate
insulation on the exhaust.

Enjoy the boat they sail great

Art
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:28 AM
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Congrats and welcome

This forum will prove itself to be an awesome resource for you. Tons of great experience here.

Definitely follow the advice about vacuuming out the loose scale and soaking those plugs with penetrating oil for a few day's, longer if possible. I wish I had that kind of engine access.

Does the engine turn over? I'm not suggesting you attempt to run the engine! Do you have a hand crank? If the engine turns free without any eyebrow raising noises or grinding/binding chances are she just needs some TLC and will be a great engine despite the way it looks.

As you go through the process of getting your new boat back in shape keep in mind that you don't know when the last time the engine was actually running and how it was running so your first steps towards getting her back to life should be small ones.

Get yourself a Moyer Manual if you haven't already. Excellent manual.
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Old 08-01-2014, 09:50 AM
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I have had a Tartan 34 for 18 years and love it.
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