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  #1   IP: 38.118.52.121
Old 02-02-2005, 10:47 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Some comments about coils

There’s a technical matter that deserves our attention. Our faithful Web Shepherd is constantly looking behind every digital rock in cyberspace, to warn us of any “wolves” that might be threatening our flock from the outside. Currently, he’s frantically waving a red flag about reports of premature coil failures in the immediate aftermath of installing an electronic ignition kit. To be fair, I should point out that he has been waving this particular flag at least once or twice each year for the past several years, so the subject clearly deserves a closer look.

BACKGROUND:

Electronic ignition systems (by design) provide a slightly higher dwell time within the primary circuit, which means that coils will normally operate at a somewhat higher temperature in an electronic system than they would in a comparable conventional system.

Technical representatives from Pertronix (the manufacturer of the Ignitor) continue to tell us that any good quality automotive oil-filled coil, with at least 3 ohms resistance in its primary windings, will work well with their Ignitor in our Atomic 4 application. There also seems to be agreement among other experts with whom we network that oil filled coils are somewhat more efficient in terms of dissipating the additional heat created in electronic systems than are solid epoxy coils (which is no doubt why oil filled coils typically feel hotter to the touch).

Epoxy filled coils are reported to have an advantage where high vibration is anticipated, or where a coil is to be mounted in any position other than upright. Oil filled coils apparently have somewhat of a tendency to leak oil from the bottom of their high tension post in any orientation other than upright. Solid epoxy coils are also somewhat more resistant to mechanical damage and the effects of corrosion in a marine environment.

Our own experience tends to support all of the foregoing rationale. Our experience also suggests that heat buildup is the most tangible threat to coil life, so the coils that we have been using and marketing for over 8 years are metal-jacketed oil-filled coils with 4 ohms of resistance within the primary circuit. They have been extremely reliable, in both conventional and electronic ignition systems, with a failure rate so low as to never have made it to our radar screen of concern.

A CLOSER LOOK:

In more recent conversations with the folks from Pertronix, we have gleaned the following information:

If your coil appears to be an original unit (perhaps 30 or more years old), has noticeable rust on the outside of the metal jacket, signs of mechanical damage or any indication that oil has leaked out of the metal jacket, it’s definitely wise to replace the coil. Realistically, it would be a good idea to replace such a coil, even if one were not installing an Ignitor.

Pertronix also recommends (as a matter of Ignitor reliability) that the current flowing within the primary ignition circuit should not exceed 4 amps. You can determine the current within your primary circuit as follows:

1) Measure the ohms of resistance across the primary terminals of your coil (with all leads disconnected).

2) Reconnect the coil leads, and ground the negative terminal of the coil with a wire of approximately 14 gauge. With the negative terminal of the coil grounded and the ignition switch on, read the voltage at the positive terminal of the coil.

3) Calculate the amperage within the primary circuit by dividing the voltage measured at the positive terminal of the coil by the resistance measured across the primary terminals of the coil. Example: 12 volts (as measured at the positive terminal of the coil) divided by 3 (the normal resistance measured across the primary terminals of a coil) = a maximum primary ignition circuit current of 4 amps.

NOTE: By comparison, the coils listed in our online catalog (with 4 ohms internal primary resistance) would result in only 3.5 amps within the primary ignition circuit, even if a high output alternator were installed to raise the system voltage to 14 volts.

RECOMMENDATIONS:

1) We have no failure data to suggest that you need to automatically replace your existing coil, as long as it meets the criteria in the above recommendations from Pertronix.

2) If you do decide to replace your coil (for any reason), and vibration and/or concerns over corrosion are not a primary consideration, we continue to believe that a standard good quality, metal-jacketed, oil-filled coil is a very prudent choice.

Best regards,

Don Moyer

Last edited by Administrator; 09-30-2011 at 08:46 PM.
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  #2   IP: 216.54.200.157
Old 07-13-2005, 11:46 AM
jkenan jkenan is offline
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Don-

Is there an disadvantage going with the flamethrower epoxy filled coil? I chose it because of vibration, but wonder if this my be contributing to my immediate shutdowns I've mentioned in prior thread.

Thanks.

John
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  #3   IP: 38.118.52.61
Old 07-13-2005, 05:16 PM
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John,

There's no reason to believe that the Flamethrower coil has anything to do with your intermittent shutdowns.

Don
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  #4   IP: 24.209.243.94
Old 08-24-2005, 08:42 PM
busam2004 busam2004 is offline
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engine electronic trouble

I own a 1977 SeaRay SR200. Its powerplant is the original Mercruiser 250 V8. My trouble comes in usually about half way through the season. When I try to pull a skier and really hit the throttle the engine "caughs and sputters" and i get very little power. If i replace the plug wires the problem goes away, but i only get a single season out of a set of wires (i have tried marine wires and automotive wires with the same result) My season is not long either, i usually boat 6 or 7 times a year if i am lucky. I am considering upgrading my engine to electronic ignition, will this take care of my problem? if not, any suggestions as to how to fix my problem?
thanx
busam2004
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  #5   IP: 38.118.55.154
Old 08-26-2005, 08:14 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Your Mercruiser is a far cry from our little four cylinder flat head Atomic 4 sailboat engine, but when an engine coughs and sputters when accelerating, it's usually an indication of a lean fuel mixture or a timing issue. I'm suspicious that your symptoms might come and go somewhat randomly (perhaps more prevalent when the engine temperature was high), and as you replaced your plug leads you picked up the mistaken impression that changing the leads was correcting the problem.

If you have an adjustment for your high speed fuel system, I'd make it a bit richer, and I'd check the timing as well. You may be a bit on the advanced side.

Don Moyer
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  #6   IP: 70.177.173.123
Old 04-22-2007, 06:49 PM
hnygren hnygren is offline
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Coil Swapout

My coil was possibly an original 1974 installation. I believe that occasional stoppages were from coil overheating. I ordered an epoxy coil to go with my electronic ignition, from Moyer last year. In swapping out the 7 wires on the coils I possibly put BOTH distributor wires on the plus terminal. This is a No-No according to the installation instructions. I now have no spark. Power gets to the coil all right. Have I destroyed the electronic ignition? How can I check this? May be an expensive lesson.
Regards,
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  #7   IP: 38.118.52.41
Old 04-23-2007, 09:03 AM
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Harley,

You probably did ruin the module in your electronic ignition system. It would be best if we could talk on the phone to be sure. If you did ruin your module, I'll try to come up with a fix for you without replacing your entire system. Our tech service line is (410) 810 - 8920. If you email your phone number to info@moyermarine.com, I'll try to reach you as well to save time.

Don
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Old 07-30-2007, 11:28 AM
Ken Mason Ken Mason is offline
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A Recent Coil Experience

Thought you might find this interesting.
When I acquired my C&C 35 this spring (came with an A4) I motor/sailed her from Deale MD to Quebec. I purchased, and had hoped to install, an electronic ignition upgrade before the trip but weather precluded that happening.

We were about 45 minutes underway when the engine sputtered and died. After fiddling for about 30 minutes it restarted. Ran for another 30 minutes or so and died again. At this point I remembered reading about "infant death" syndrone in coils. I installed the coil that came with the upgrade kit and for the rest of the 10 day trip I had no coil problems.

Now it gets interesting. A week after arriving I tried to start the engine and it wouldn't. Finally I swapped the old coil back in and the engine fired up immediately.

This past week I finally installed the electronic ignition upgrade (along with a new water pump and adjustments to the "clutch") and I switched back to the new coil. 45 minutes into the sea trial the engine died. By now I had purchased a new backup coil. Swapped it in and the engine immediately fired up and ran for the next 20 minutes, back to port.

Friends have started to suggest I buy coils by the caseload <grin>
Ken
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  #9   IP: 71.63.51.24
Old 05-09-2008, 09:03 AM
John Fairfield John Fairfield is offline
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no spark

This spring I can't get any spark on the Atomic 4 in my '73 Columbia 30. I can hold the end of the wire coming out of the center of the coil, and touch the block firmly with the same hand, while cranking with ignition on, and not feel a thing. I can hold the wire end 3/8 to 1/16 inch from the block and not get a spark.

I've replaced and gapped the points. I've replaced the condenser. I've replaced the coil. The coil I took off read "use with external resistor", the one I put on reads the same thing, but I can't find any external resistor or resistive wire. I've always asked for ignition parts for a mid 60's Chevy II.

A low-voltage tester lamp with the probe on the - side of the coil wavers in intensity, though always on somewhat, while I crank. My cheap multimeter shows 12 volts at the + side of the coil when my ignition switch is on. I measure maybe 5 ohms internal to the both the old and the new coil (between the +/- poles). The ohmmeter doesn't find much resistance if any in the wire between the - pole and the condenser attachment point on the contacts. I get about 60 ohms between the moving and fixed part of my points when they are apart, which surprised me, I figured that would be infinite.

Any ideas?
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  #10   IP: 38.102.16.123
Old 05-10-2008, 08:41 AM
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John,

I'm attaching our troubleshooting guide for absence of spark.

In the meantime, you should either install a 1 to 2 ohm ballast resister in the circuit from the ignition switch and the positive of the coil or replace the coil with an internally resisted coil. Using a coil designed for external resistance without external resistance will reduce its life to little more than a year.

In another matter, I would check your volt/ohmmeter. The resistance between the positive and negative terminals of the coil should read only about 1 1/2 ohms for an externally resisted coil. Even an internally resisted coil only measures approximately 3 1/2 ohms across the primary terminals.

Yet another matter: I recommend connecting your 12 volt test light between the positive and negative terminals of the coil. The lamp will then turn on and off as the points open and close (in parallel with the coil) which makes timing seem more logical; i.e., you place the engine with the first cylinder at the flywheel end of the engine at the top of its power stroke and then slowly rotate the distributor until the test light goes off. This is then also the time that the primary circuit of the coil is energized to create a strong secondary discharge from the center post.

Good luck

Don
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File Type: pdf Troubleshooting lack of spark.pdf (13.0 KB, 2933 views)
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  #11   IP: 69.140.7.29
Old 06-29-2008, 12:16 PM
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Just a reminder to folks:
There's no reason you can't move your coil from the block.

Having it right next to the exhaust and bolted to the engine gives it plenty of heat and vibration, both of which it doesn't like. Buy a longer center wire and move it over to a bulkhead where it will be nice and cool.
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  #12   IP: 166.137.132.153
Old 07-20-2009, 06:36 PM
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How does a coil problem manifest itself?

I recently rebuilt my engine and may have replaced a new coil with a questionable coil that I had saved as a spare (As I recall this coil question occurred just after installing the Ignitor a few years ago!) The engine has been running great until this weekend. It was the first extended trip. I motored Saturday afternoon for about 2 hrs. When we anchored the engine stalled at idle as I was preparing to drop the anchor. I couldn't restart it. I noted a spark from the coil wire and decided it was a fuel problem so I left it for the next morning. However, the next morning she starred right up so I didn't investigate further. After a great sail on Sunday I again motored for a couple of hours back to our mooring to meet friends. Again, as I slowed to an idle and was I was just about to pick up the mooring lines, the engine stalled. Like earlier it could not be restarted.

Now I went right to a fuel condition and took off the fuel line. A crank instantly proved this wrong as fuel gushed out. Incidentally, some gas spilled onto the coil and vaporized. The coil was extremely hot. I again pulled the coil wire and cranked and this time noted that though there was a spark it was anemic and barely jumped a 1/4 inch gap. Suspecting the coil was being effected by the heat I applied a hunk of ice to the coil for a few minutes and cooled it down enough that I could touch it. The engine then started right up.

Does this sound like an coil problem or should I keep looking?

Last edited by ghaegele; 07-20-2009 at 07:39 PM. Reason: Can't use a handheld!
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  #13   IP: 64.231.90.18
Old 07-30-2009, 03:38 PM
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Pertronix also recommends (as a matter of Ignitor reliability) that the current flowing within the primary ignition circuit should not exceed 4 amps. You can determine the current within your primary circuit as follows:

Don, how do you limit the current flowing within the primary circuit to 4amps if it is greater than that?
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  #14   IP: 76.237.200.76
Old 10-21-2010, 08:03 PM
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Question Petronix web site

I recently purchased a Cataline 27 with an A4. I'm trying to order a 190-v2 ignitor as a spare, but for some reason the Petronix website is extremely difficult to find any parts. I type 190-v2 in their search with no results. Any ideas?
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  #15   IP: 24.186.164.179
Old 10-22-2010, 11:04 AM
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Buy from Moyer Marine. You will be certain to get the exact part your A4 needs. Order online or, even better, call and speak to Ken who can answer just about any question you have.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:56 PM
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Post Ignitor

Thanks, I see I need to do a lot of crawling to find out what parts are on this engine and to determine if it's an early or late model. All I know now is that itruns really nicely.
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  #17   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 10-23-2010, 02:09 PM
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Blitzkrieg

Bob,

Where did that 190-V2 ignitor part number come from? I couldn't find any reference to it regarding coils anywhere. 1939 radial engine Focke-Wulf 190-V2 - Ja-wohl but coils - Nein.
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-23-2010 at 02:18 PM.
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Old 04-13-2011, 10:11 PM
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engine won't go off with ignition switch

Late last season my engine wouldn't shut off when I turned the key back in the ignition. It wouldn't even go off if I removed the key altogether. I ignored the problem for the duration of the season and used the choke to shut off the motor. Yesterday I fired up the motor for the first time since last year and the problem persits (imagine that..the engine didn't fix itself over the winter). Where do I start to figure out why the ignition will start but not stop?
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Old 04-14-2011, 08:28 AM
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I think you have one of the more simple fixes in front of you: replace the starter switch.

Good luck
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Old 04-14-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ghaegele View Post
I think you have one of the more simple fixes in front of you: replace the starter switch.
Not necessarily.

I had this exact thing happen to me last year. Sometimes the engine would shut off when I turned off the switch; sometimes it would just keep running as if nothing had changed.

I dug around and found several abandoned circuits that were still connected to hot leads, but terminated out on space, not connected to anything.

I pulled those surplus wires out and the problem disappeared. I never did determine exactly which wire was causing it, but clearly I had stray current getting to the coil somehow.

Of course, I figured that out AFTER I bought a $28 switch and installed it and discovered that it did not fix the problem.
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Old 04-14-2011, 09:35 AM
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Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by msc6312 View Post
Late last season my engine wouldn't shut off when I turned the key back in the ignition. It wouldn't even go off if I removed the key altogether. I ignored the problem for the duration of the season and used the choke to shut off the motor. Yesterday I fired up the motor for the first time since last year and the problem persits (imagine that..the engine didn't fix itself over the winter). Where do I start to figure out why the ignition will start but not stop?
Do you have access to an electrical test meter? You need to test voltage at several points to diagnose the problem.
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  #22   IP: 67.90.51.162
Old 04-14-2011, 10:02 AM
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Do you have an ammeter at the engine panel? If so, is it on all the time whether ignition is on or off? If yes, you have a bad ignition switch, since it is very unlikely you have a short going to both the coil and the ammeter/alternator. (Actually, all the meters should be off when ignition is off, not just ammeter.)

The only possible reason your engine is not turning off is because you are not cutting power to the coil. Electricity runs from your battery or battery switch to the large bolt on the starter solenoid, and from that bolt it powers the ignition switch. The ignition switch in turn energizes the coil allowing the engine to run (and connects to the ammeter/alternator), and also engages the starter solenoid when turned to the start position.

You are getting power to your ignition switch. You are getting power to your coil. And you are getting power to your solenoid since you can engage the starter and start your engine. The problem, then, is either your ignition switch not cutting power to the coil when you turn it off, or a short circuit (or incorrect wiring) somewhere else that is continually powering your coil. To test your switch, disconnect the wire from your coil to the ingition switch at the ignition switch. If you can successfully start your engine the problem is somewhere else. If you can only engage the starter but it won't turn over, replace the switch.

Last edited by ghaegele; 04-14-2011 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Correction
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Old 04-14-2011, 10:28 AM
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There are only two possibilities, the ignition switch as previously mentioned or a short between unswitched 12V+ and the ignition circuit (possible but rare). Another quick test would be to remove the wire from the IGN terminal of the switch and test for 12V+ at the coil+ terminal with the battery switch on. Test=yes=short somewhere, test=no=bad switch.

Another side effect of this problem is the possibility of coil damage. They don't like to be energized without the engine running and unless you've been religious about immediately switching the power off to the engine system after flooding the engine to die, the coil has been stressed. They don't cost that much, after resolving the ignition switch or short problem I'd recommend a new coil.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 06-25-2011, 10:52 AM
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Old 10-16-2017, 04:30 PM
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Interesting. I replace my coil every 2-3 years. I replaced it this spring when I put in a electronic ignition for the first time. Yesterday, it burnt out. I figured this out after replacing everything in the distributor, because previously, the coil had never come close to having any problems.

SG
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