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  #1   IP: 70.160.79.223
Old 07-11-2010, 05:00 PM
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NorfolkRagbagger NorfolkRagbagger is offline
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Battery selection w/2 on A4

I've searched the forums for some time but haven't seen this directly discussed. Please excuse the redundancy if I missed it.

Have a Catalina 30 with 2-battery setup, 1-cranking - 1-house (deep cycle) when purchased, and a Guest 1, 2, all, off switch. All was well until a year ago when I fried one of the batteries with a faulty 120V charger - figured this out when pennies and bronze wool was turning gray in cabin. (Keep a penny safely near your batteries - if it turns gray, GET OUT OF THE BOAT - hydrogen sulfide gas can take you out very quickly)

Replaced both batteries with same configuration (1-cranking,1-deep cycle-1st mistake) Interstate group 27's and new charger. All was OK for couple months, then new deep cycle battery was kapoot. Got a freebie replacement from a friend and was not concerned until rebuilding fuel and exhaust system. Now cranking battery stays low, won't crank engine, old deep cycle doesn't have the ooomph to start engine.

I'm replacing both batteries (ONE YEAR LATER) but one thing I've learned is not to mix the 2 types of batteries if I should need to use both to crank engine.

Would it be better to use 2-cranking batteries (have been group 27) or 2-deep cycle? I see disadvantages for both option. I use extremely little 12V, for low watt lighting and 12V Whaler pump for water in winter.

Have new Professional Marine ProSport 12 charger which will be installed when I decide on batteries. It has dual, allegedly proportional charging depending on battery demand. Will continue arrangement with 4-position Guest battery switch.

Thanks for condoning the dumb question.

PS: Just noticed I was promoted to a "senior member" of this forum. I resemble that statement!!!

Last edited by NorfolkRagbagger; 07-11-2010 at 05:01 PM. Reason: addition
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Old 07-11-2010, 06:25 PM
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I'm not seeing a problem mixing cranking and deep cycle batteries as long as they're either both lead-acid or both AGM's. That is, don't mix lead-acid and AGM's.

Having said that and assuming all your batteries are lead-acid (I don't think Interstate has AGM's, do they?), I think your problem might be the old charger or maybe cables/connections. Glad to see you have a new charger.

My boat has 5 batteries:
Isolated G24 engine cranker
2 house banks of 2 each G27 deep cycle

All are charged by an ancient Newmar dual bank automatic charger, one lead for the engine batt and the other for the house banks (the house banks are charged through their own battery switch). I keep an eye on the water levels. This arrangement has been trouble free for over 5 years and counting.

So to support my opening statement, here's a mix of conventional and deep cycle batts that has worked well for years.
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Old 07-11-2010, 07:58 PM
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A bit of history on my batteries:
Bought boat with 2 size 27 deep cycle running through A/B/Both switch. Had usual problems (brain fade) leading to killing both more than once. Prior to a trip to Maine about 10 years ago, I was concerned that a single 27 house wouldn't be enough for all night with nav lights, tunes, and radar going, so I doubled by house bank to 2 size 27s - by buying a size 24 start battery.
Each bank is now on an on/off switch - the B side isn't hooked up. House bank is also on an A/B/Both switch because I had one, but it's configured for on/off. The two banks are connected with a combiner for charging. Alternator used to go the the start battery, but my controller wasn't happy with that. Alternator now goes to the house bank directly.
A size 24 start battery is plenty for an Atomic 4. The only caveat to that is to keep an eye on your cables and connections. I had the start battery ground cable go bad, leading to all sorts of wierd results - worst of which was a 12" Michigan prop that dissolved its way down to 9.5" (photos on request!). If things get 'funny', use a digital voltmeter to check voltage drops in both the hot and ground legs.

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Old 07-11-2010, 09:31 PM
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I've had the usual array - 24s,27s, even tried a a big 8d and a 4d. What I've found is that it is best to stick with cheap NAPA flooded batterys. For best use of space and maximum capacity, go with group 31s, deep cycle, all of them even for starting. Each battery should be on it's own switch if possible, and you should be able to use any one of them to start. I do not use isolators and I feed all batterys into the main buss bar for maximum flexibility. Hopefully you have a voltmeter. BTW those dual charge rate chargers are bad business on a sailboat especially if you live aboard for long plugged into a dock.
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:49 AM
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Hanley,

I'm curious what your take on these chargers is ? Mine's worked excellent these last couple years. Any other"s comments welcomed

BTW those dual charge rate chargers are bad business on a sailboat especially if you live aboard for long plugged into a dock.


Regards, Greg
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Old 07-12-2010, 11:51 AM
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The problem with these chargers is that whenever the voltage in the system falls below a certain value, the higher charger rate will kick in automatically for a period until another fixed voltage is reached; then it will drop down to it's "float" value. The problem is that the batteries don't really need the extra charge; the low voltage signal was only temporary, but the system tends to in effect over react. The result is that batteries can get overcharged and even lose electrolyte.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:52 PM
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Does A4 need "cranking" battery

Just throwing this out for comments: does the Atomic 4 really need a dedicated cranking battery? I don't recall where I came across it (perhaps on this forum), but I have read the suggestion that diesels do definitely require a starting battery but the A4, which can be hand cranked, doesn't draw so much that it will run down a deep cycle battery and we can then carry all deep cycles. Of course the risk is then using the starting battery as a house battery and waking up to find you ran down both batteries and now need the hand crank.

Greg
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Old 07-12-2010, 04:55 PM
Jesse Delanoy Jesse Delanoy is offline
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Not sure what you would call my batteries, but they are the "mixed use" variety - i.e. not pure house batteries and not pure cranking batteries. Used to buy 'em at sears, got my current ones at Capt. Mike's in Norfolk. I have 2 of them, with an A-B-Both battery switch. They seem to be fine for both starting and house batteries. The A4 seems to require very little battery to start.

When cruising, I use one at a time. One battery, both to start and run the engine and to run lights at night (and my apnea breathing machine), never has there been so little left in the morning that I could not start the engine. However, I keep the other battery untouched in case the first one won't turn her over after a night's use. If I ever get to the point where I can't turn the engine over with either battery or both in sync, well, I guess that's what unlimited TowBoat/U.S. is for.

This worked fine on a 16 day cruise around Maryland and Virginia's Eastern Shore, with two stops along the way at marinas with shore power, where I could use the 120 vac charger (Norfolk and Ocean City).

At that time, I did seem to have a problem with batteries draining faster than I was used to. Turns out we had just had a stereo installed, the guy wired it directly to a battery terminal - so as not to knock out power to the radio station memory (!) - and it was constantly drawing juice, even when turned off. When I figured this out, I rewired it through an available switch on my panel, so I can TOTALLY turn it off when not in use (I couldn't care less about the radio stations - don't need to listen to WOLD while under sail!) and now my battery life is greatly extended.

I keep thinking about house banks and starting batteries, but then I think, "what for?"

Jesse Delanoy
1977 Catalina 30 #664
Off The Grid
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:01 PM
Jesse Delanoy Jesse Delanoy is offline
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BTW

Neil,

Exactly WHERE do you mount five batteries on a Catalina 30?

I've got two in my engine compartment, no fresh water cooling, my water pressure pump is under my old style (angled) chart table. With water tank under starboard settee, holding tank under port settee, I don't know where I could cram in one more battery, let alone three.

Jesse Delanoy

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Old 07-12-2010, 06:01 PM
Jesse Delanoy Jesse Delanoy is offline
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Neil,

I just looked at your photos of your boat. Very impressive! I guess that's to be expected from an electrical contractor who does woodworking!!

I especially like your chart table/nav station. Did you retrofit the angled chart table to a level one?

Still want to know where five batteries live!

Jesse Delanoy
1977 Catalina 30 No. 664
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Old 07-12-2010, 06:51 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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Lightbulb Batteries

Ragbagger, I have been using both cranking and deep cycle batteries in the same manner you described and have had no problems. I was getting 3 years out of my batteries and decided I needed to make a change as they should last longer. After all I was buying good quality batteries. An old timer I work with told me to stop charging if I'm not using any power except the bilge pump. He said if you keep them excersived they will last longer, so far he was right. So I disconnected the charger and sold it to a neighbor, now my batteries are lasting 5-6 years. When I leave the boat I switch to house and walk away. Since then 10~12 years ago I have had no problems with my batteries unless I leave a light on, then I still start on the start battery or get the car charger out of the garage.
I don't really understand why it has worked but there is a deffinate improvement in my battery life. My house batteries are now 6 years old and the start is 5 years old. I let her sit for 3 months with the B/P on and she still started at the start of every season.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Delanoy View Post
Neil,

I just looked at your photos of your boat. Very impressive! I guess that's to be expected from an electrical contractor who does woodworking!!

I especially like your chart table/nav station. Did you retrofit the angled chart table to a level one?

Still want to know where five batteries live!
I haven't been ignoring you Jesse, honest! Just got home from work.

Yeah, 5 batteries on a Catalina 30. There's a single group 24 mounted outboard of the engine, reserved for engine only. It doesn't need to be dedicated to the engine but it's my battery management preference. A bank of 2 group 27's are located under the forward part of the starboard berth, mounted as far aft as the water tank allows. I cheated a little on the last 2. They're a bank of 2 group 27's located under the forward midship dinette seat.

What's that? You don't have a forward midship dinette seat?

I modified my dinette from an L shape to a U shape during a major refit. The extra seat gave me a great battery compartment low and centered in the boat and a way to conceal all the new mast wiring. Pics attached.

Anticipating the question, why all the batteries? Well sirs, I like my beer cold. My NovaKool refrigeration is an essential component for me but bruddah, does it ever eat up the amps. The old rule of thumb is to add a battery when you add refrigeration. I added two.

While we're talking batteries, there's another rule of thumb I heard somewhere about having a charging capacity of 25% of the total battery amperage. I figure I'm at about 450 amps capacity (I know, not all usable) and I have a 100 amp alternator so I'm in the ballpark.

And Jesse, I'll catch you off-list to chat about the chart table. Thanks for the compliment.
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-12-2010 at 11:19 PM.
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Old 07-12-2010, 09:23 PM
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Very Nice!
Like Jesse said earlier...
Only from the mind of an Electrical Engineer AND a Wood Worker!
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Old 07-12-2010, 10:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Very Nice!
Like Jesse said earlier...
Only from the mind of an Electrical Engineer AND a Wood Worker!
OOOOH, BABY!! It's all about MEEEEE!! Keep 'dem comments comin', ice cold beer waiting on board for all youse guys.

Seriously, thanks.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 07-15-2010 at 01:10 AM. Reason: Failed smiley experiment
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Old 07-13-2010, 08:28 PM
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Thumbs up Thanks!

Uhhhhhhhh ndutton - you really know how to give settee/battery compartment envy to the crowd! Beautiful installation!

Thanks for everyone's input - I guess my original concern was having the switch on "ALL" and cranking the engine from 2 batteries, one of each type - the load might (I thought) whack the deep cycle etc. In my opinion now, the switch should never be at "ALL" except when desperate.

I'm going with a group 27 or 31 (have to check space - it's that tight) , rewiring everything, and installing the ProSport 12 charger.

Thanks for all the wisdom!
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:02 PM
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Smile

Just as a post script to this battery discussion. First of all it appears that Neil and I agree on something (nobody get alarmed, please) - lots of battery capacity is good (in fact I believe Don Moyer said that the configuration of the boat should be the limiting factor). I believe this because it makes for much less deep discharging of individual batterys. Although deep cycle are made for deeper discharges than starting batterys, they still don't like it and will last longer if used "lightly". I have used some group 31s as long as 15 years. I have carried as many as 6 31s at once. Second, in my opinion the A4 does not require a starting battery. So why mix things up? A deep cycle 27, 29, or 31 will easily start the A4.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:40 PM
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To Crank or Not To Crank

To clarify a little on my preference for an isolated engine starting battery, it's not that I think the engine needs it, it's that I need it.

Having that battery in reserve for starting the engine gives me peace of mind. I can watch DVD's, listen to the stereo, keep the suds cold and burn lights all I want without any concern of starting the engine when necessary, regardless of how I may have mistreated the house banks. No desperation samba the morning after.

Note that my engine starting battery is the smallest one on board.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:47 PM
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Hi Neil,
[off topic]
Curious, where did you run your battery cables for the centerline batteries? Did you run them aft to port and then over thru the engine compartment, as if I recall all of your controls are now above the chart table?

All of us Catalina 30 owners are envious of your installation(s) and improvements..there is something to be said for being willing to give up on the sailing for a few years to complete a project
[/off topic]
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Last edited by sastanley; 07-13-2010 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:52 PM
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Oh-Oh

You're going to get me in trouble Shawn.

***BLASPHEMY ALERT***

I ran them through the bilge, although to rationalize, they are run continuous without splices or connections and are tied up tight to the underside of the cabin sole, a little to the side to leave the bilge access clear. When it comes to battery cables, size matters (direct relationship) and length matters (inverse relationship) so I ran them the shortest possible path.

Edit: I guess it would be polite to actually answer your question. I have two battery switches, one on the new dinette seat/battery box and the other on the aft dinette seat to stbd of the engine. The forward switch manages the house banks, its common terminal is wired to the engine battery switch, terminal 2. This same terminal 2 is wired to my DC distribution panel by going dead aft to the quarter berth and then stbd to the nav station. Y'know, better yet, here's a drawing of my system. As my pdf software is smarter than me, you'll need to rotate the page to read it, sorry.
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File Type: pdf Battery Wiring.pdf (22.0 KB, 527 views)
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-14-2010 at 01:43 AM.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:53 PM
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Neil - I agree, and I always keep a fully charged battery off line whenever the engine is not running.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:04 PM
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Question

Neil - I am curious as to what size cable you used on that run under the sole.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:07 PM
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My normal loads are low, never greater than 20 amps and I've never needed the house banks to start the engine so the greatest amperage on the cabling would be during charging if the banks were low.

The short answer is . . . . #4.
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1977 Catalina 30
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Had my hands in a few others
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:29 PM
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"That does it"

Neil,
I have been contemplating the addition of the the same storage/seat section shown in your photos for my cat 30 and this pretty much seals the deal. Nice work bud.
Tom
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
..there is something to be said for being willing to give up on the sailing for a few years to complete a project
[/off topic]
Frankly, it's not like I had much choice. The rig - and the original spruce spreaders - was/were 30+ years in the elements. I'll tell you, I didn't trust those spreaders one bit so sailing was out of the question until the mast was refit and the rigging replaced. As long as I was tackling a project of that size, I figured I may as well go for the whole enchilada. To try and bring this thread back on topic, it included all new electrics including batteries and cabling.
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Y'know, better yet, here's a drawing of my system..
I just love a clear schematic. Nice. Picture really is worth a thousand words.
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