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  #1   IP: 68.185.0.162
Old 07-09-2015, 02:25 PM
Laszlo Laszlo is offline
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Santana 27 exhaust system

Hello Everyone,
I am new to this forum after having purchased a Santana 27 (1971) that came with an A-4 engine. The PO went over the engine with me, and we managed to get it running with some encouragement, but it needs some work. In particular, the PO suspected that the water lift muffler is faulty, and that is causing water getting in the oil every once in a while. Replacing the muffler was too much of a project for him, so he had been replacing the oil very frequently instead.

I am in the process of a fuel system upgrade (bought a new fuel pump from MMI, installed new fuel lines, fuel filters, a primer bulb, cleaned carburetor, etc.. ), so I haven't been running the engine much. However, the other day when I was debugging rough idle, I noticed that there was smoke coming up from the back of the engine where the exhaust flange is. I turned the engine off, and hasn't run it since. Inspecting the exhaust system it appears that the water lift has been repaired before with what looks like a not very good weld job. I suspect that the weld has cracked, and now exhaust gases are escaping through it. I will try to attach some pictures, but this is my first post, so bear with me.

My first question is if anybody knows what type of water lift muffler this is, and if this is an acceptable configuration? Reading the MMI manual, and also reading other threads, it doesn't seem usual, and I am wondering if I should completely rebuild the exhaust system, or try repairing this existing water lift muffler.

The other question I had is related to the exhaust line from the muffler to the back of the boat. On my boat it appears that the line is installed so that it has a steady climb all the way to the back of the boat. So the water/exhaust mix has to fight gravity for the length of about 6ft or so. The water is coming out in bursts, as opposed to a steady flow. I suspect that this is not very good for my back-pressure, and I wonder if I need to alter this. There is not a whole lot of room to route the exhaust line in any other way, so perhaps that is the reason why it was done like this in the first place. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

~Laszlo
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  #2   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 07-10-2015, 06:31 PM
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Al Schober Al Schober is offline
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Laszlo,
Looking at your pictures, I'm not sure what you've got there. Water lift units are usually installed low in the boat, then the exhaust/water mix rises to the exhaust - typically coming out in spurts.
Your unit looks like a mixing can or riser, but installed backwards. Exhaust seems to be coming in the side (which should be the outlet), then coming out the bottom (which should be the inlet). Installed like that, residual water in the riser will go back into the engine - not good.
Perhaps someone else will see something I'm missing...
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:23 PM
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That looks like a a short standpipe to me. I cant see where the exhaust exits the stand pipe, but I assume it is the bottom. Is there another muffler in there somewhere? A stand pipe would not batch water. It would not push water up hill either.
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Old 07-10-2015, 08:25 PM
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This looks like an attempt at a homemade standpipe system. It fails because there is insufficient height available to get the water and exhaust high enough such that both can run down hill to transom. These parameters are the heart of the standpipe technology. This boat needs a new exhaust system which will have to be engineered from scratch. First we need a sketch in section showing the engine in relation to the waterline. You have come to the right place - we love projects.
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Old 07-10-2015, 10:09 PM
Laszlo Laszlo is offline
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Thanks for the replies everyone. To answer questions: the water/exhaust mix comes out in the back at a little higher point where the exhaust flange is. I am posting a picture taken from the top. There is not other muffler, just some exhaust tubing all the way to the transom.
I will take some measurements, and post them. Yes, it seems like a project.
~Laszlo
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Old 07-10-2015, 11:51 PM
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This will be an engineering challenge. Unless you are willing to spring for a jacketed system the only real alternative is a water lift. Not much over head space aft of the engine for a riser and not enough room forward of the cockpit deck to get a riser up and down and stay away from the fiberglass. Oddly enough the best choice may be to come out of the forward end of the (new) manifold.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:08 AM
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The good news is that the engine is not real low to the water line, but the room for a hose to transom is limited. This is a tight fit for an Atomic 4.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:07 PM
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How about running the exhaust out the side? I know this will work with a mixing can - can't see any reason it wouldn't work with a water lift.
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Old 07-11-2015, 12:47 PM
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not all interior layouts provide enough heigth for a standpipe to be the best choice. downhill discharge from the standpipe to the through hull is importent. a redesign opens up all options meaning a lift type exhaust too. components for a lift system are easy to find.
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Old 07-14-2015, 09:09 PM
Laszlo Laszlo is offline
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Hi Everyone,
Thank you for the thoughts and tips. I managed to get the "standpipe" off. It was rusty, and stuff rattles inside, so it will have to go. At this point I am committed to an exhaust system redesign. I will try to get the exhaust flange off the old standpipe, and invent some kind of hot section routing. I have two possibilities in mind.
One is to go straight up with the exhaust hot section, do an inverse U bend, have the cooling-water come in, and from that point forward let gravity take the exhaust-CW mix out through the transom. I am attaching a cartoon with what I have in mind. I think I might be able to pull it off with the space limitations. I wonder how noisy it would be though, without a muffler? This would be the cheapest way to do it. Also, since CW exits gravity-fed, I wouldn't swamp the engine with water when accidentally over-cranking. Disadvantage is that it needs some elaborate pipe-routing, and the hot section would run close to fiberglass and ply-wood.
The other way is to put a water lift muffler in the bilge. I would have to invent a mount or pedestal for it (so that it sits horizontal), and the muffler is expensive. Other than that this second option seems more attractive actually.
Any thoughts?
I am also attaching a few pictures I took of the working space.
~Laszlo
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  #11   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 07-14-2015, 09:40 PM
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With that kind of engine manifold height above the water line it's easy to see why the choice was for a standpipe. They just didn't get the right one. Since the standpipe is much preferred over the water lift and you have the room I would do everything possible to keep the standpipe concept. The unit will have to modified for less height (moving the discharge up). I also think the system will be cleaner if run off the front of the manifold where much less bending and angling will be required. MMI sells a manifold with front discharge.
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Old 07-15-2015, 01:07 AM
Laszlo Laszlo is offline
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Interesting thoughts about the standpipe. I couldn't find much information on how to install a standpipe in the MMI service manual, it only talks about water lifts. I will have to do some more research on that, as I haven't really considered that option yet.
I cannot really come out in the front of the manifold. It is not shown in the pictures, but there is a plywood plate that covers up much of the "engine room" (or at least on the top and on the sides, it still has a hole in the middle). The stairs attach to that plate. If if came out in the front of the manifold, the plate wouldn't fit into its place any more.
Back to standpipes: The MMI Tartan style muffler seems a bit too long. I need to take some more measurements, but it seems that (leaving room for CW entry) the bottom of the unit would come down just a few inches above the waterline. Given that the standpipe cannot push, this would not be ideal. Google search on standpipes doesn't give a whole lot of shopping hits (and searching West Marine website for keyword "standpipe" returns a washing machine). Could anyone recommend a vendor of standpipes?
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Old 07-15-2015, 01:13 AM
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I think you just realized what new member Shelby said three days ago. Waterlift components are readily available, standpipes not so much.

BTW, I'm surprised no one has said it yet, welcome Shelby.
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  #14   IP: 107.0.6.242
Old 07-15-2015, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laszlo View Post
Interesting thoughts about the standpipe. I couldn't find much information on how to install a standpipe in the MMI service manual, it only talks about water lifts. I will have to do some more research on that, as I haven't really considered that option yet.
I cannot really come out in the front of the manifold. It is not shown in the pictures, but there is a plywood plate that covers up much of the "engine room" (or at least on the top and on the sides, it still has a hole in the middle). The stairs attach to that plate. If if came out in the front of the manifold, the plate wouldn't fit into its place any more.
Back to standpipes: The MMI Tartan style muffler seems a bit too long. I need to take some more measurements, but it seems that (leaving room for CW entry) the bottom of the unit would come down just a few inches above the waterline. Given that the standpipe cannot push, this would not be ideal. Google search on standpipes doesn't give a whole lot of shopping hits (and searching West Marine website for keyword "standpipe" returns a washing machine). Could anyone recommend a vendor of standpipes?
The standpipe does not need to "push". Even a few inches and any downward pitch at all allows the hose to drain with minimum effort. The water lift compels the engine to drive water up hill many feet and that is the stuff back pressure is made of. Even a short stand pipe is better than a water lift. Those of us with engines well below the waterline have no real choice but to go water lift. You have options.
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Old 07-15-2015, 06:54 PM
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Good, better, best . . . whatever

Lazlo,

If budget and parts availability dictate (as they often do), there's nothing wrong with a well designed and properly installed waterlift exhaust system. Using a single boat model to support the statement, there are more than 7500 Catalina 30's produced with waterlift systems and they've performed well for three decades, I'd guess at least a third of them originally with Atomic 4's. Extrapolate that over all the other sailboat manufacturers and the number of successful waterlift installations is staggering.

I'm not suggesting you have to use a waterlift, not suggesting you have to use a standpipe either. In fact, your original straight pipe plan is exactly what over 5000 Catalina 27's had, also successful for decades and MMI offers a Catalina 27 inspired exhaust system in their catalog.

One last comment: if considering a waterlift, it's my opinion that the Vetus blow molded LP40 is the lightest constructed waterlift around and grossly overpriced for what it is. I'd go with either a Centek filament wound fiberglass unit (less cost than a Vetus and IMO vastly superior quality) or MMI's stainless offering.

Apologies to members with blow molded Vetus waterlifts.

edit: BTW, engine level below the waterline has nothing to do with a standpipe system's viability. What matters is a clear shot from the engine up to preferably the deck level and the ability to provide a downhill discharge hose without traps from the standpipe to the exhaust thru-hull.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2015 at 08:56 PM.
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Old 07-15-2015, 07:18 PM
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Yes, water lifts are a proven technology and I've been using one for 25 years with a VETUS water lift. But if I could, I'd go for a standpipe. None of us are in a position to tell others what to do, but I for one would never discourage someone from thinking outside the box.
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Old 07-15-2015, 10:43 PM
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Another solution not yet mentioned is the modification of the present standpipe. If a new discharge were fitted, higher on the outer pipe, a downhill pitch to transom could be achieved. The standpipe would not afford as much protection as a full length unit, but would solve the problem to hand at minimal cost and modification. The expected use of the boat would have to be taken into account.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:39 PM
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I'd take a new waterlift system any day over a patched up and modified questionable standpipe of unknown age. JOSO (Just One Sailor's Opinion)
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-16-2015 at 01:11 AM.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
I'd take a new waterlift system any day over a patched up and modified 44 year old questionable standpipe. JOSO (Just One Sailor's Opinion)
I think that "standpipe" is fairly new, but not properly engineered for that boat.
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Old 07-15-2015, 11:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
I think that "standpipe" is fairly new, but not properly engineered for that boat.
Well then your experience with standpipes is far greater than mine. All I know is what was reported in the first post: boat is a 1971, standpipe is suspect according to the previous owner. Deferring to your analysis of its age I've modified my previous post.

Other forums have more than their share of members who acquired their expertise from only the internet but not here. Our forum is a real world, hands on place and this thread is yet another example. Obviously from considerable experience with exhaust systems in general and standpipes in particular we are now provided an approximate age of Lazlo's standpipe from the picture alone. Impressive.

Maybe one more tidbit: standpipes are an old technology giving way to waterlifts back in the 1970's. That's why they're so hard to find these days with the single exception of MMI.
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Last edited by ndutton; 08-03-2015 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 07-16-2015, 12:35 AM
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Santana 27 exhost

Having owned a Santana 27 (and a couple of 22,s) what you need to know is the boat wasn't designed for an inboard motor. You can see that by the missing engine cover/box, they just planted it there,. Having worked for the WD Schock plant I know they just looked around and found something in stock that might fit and that's what you got. Only a few 27s had inboards so no need to redesign the boat around the motor. If it was mine I would pull the motor and go with a 10hp outboard and motor at 6knots. I did that for 125 miles from Ensenada,that gives you lots of storage space and less weight and that is what Gary Mull designed for. IMHO
Neil good to see you back!
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Old 07-16-2015, 01:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Well then your experience with standpipes is far greater than mine. All I know is what was reported in the first post: boat is a 1971, standpipe is suspect according to the previous owner. Deferring to your analysis of its age I've modified my previous post.

Maybe one more tidbit: standpipes are an old technology giving way to waterlifts back in the 1970's. That's why they're so hard to find these days with the single exception of MMI.
Atomic 4 is an old technology.
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Old 07-16-2015, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tomsailmaker View Post
Having owned a Santana 27 (and a couple of 22,s) what you need to know is the boat wasn't designed for an inboard motor. You can see that by the missing engine cover/box, they just planted it there,. Having worked for the WD Schock plant I know they just looked around and found something in stock that might fit and that's what you got. Only a few 27s had inboards so no need to redesign the boat around the motor. If it was mine I would pull the motor and go with a 10hp outboard and motor at 6knots. I did that for 125 miles from Ensenada,that gives you lots of storage space and less weight and that is what Gary Mull designed for. IMHO
Neil good to see you back!
Looking at the boat I suspected as much. Still, the engine is in the boat now. If it were my boat I'd make it right.
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:45 AM
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Work in progress

Hello Everyone,
First of all, thank you again for all the replies. This forum is full of helpful people! Thanks for the insight Tom regarding the Santanas. It does seem like a really tight fit for an inboard engine, but I agree with Hanley: it's already in the boat. Might as well try to get in working shape.
I thought I would give an update on this project. Having read some other threads discussing problems caused by elevated exhaust back pressure, I decided against the water-lift. Perhaps It would have been feasible, but I didn't want to introduce a new problem. I couldn't find any standpipes that would fit into my boat, and to have one custom welded at a machine shop was beyond the budget of this project. So I decided to go with my original plan. (Thanks Neil for your input regarding the Catalinas.)

I am attaching some pictures showing the original standpipe. In the bottom, you can see the welded patch that was likely leaking exhaust gas (smoke). I couldn't get the flange off by turning, so I cut the neck off, and used a hacksaw blade to cut several incisions into the pipe stub (at about 10 o'clock, noon, and 2 o'clock). Then I used a hole-punch to knock out these fragments. After that, the rest of the stub could be crushed and turned out with a vise-grip.

I am also attaching a picture of the cooling water outlet on the exhaust manifold. It is quite rusted, but I couldn't get it off the engine. For the time being, it will have to stay. The OD of that pipe nipple is about 17mm. I found some high-temperature radiator tubing at NAPA with a 19mm ID, which will do with some hose clamps.

Finally, I am also attaching some pictures of how the pipe routing will look like. I am waiting for some high-heat coating spray and exhaust wrap to arrive in the mail, but otherwise it is almost ready. I applied a generous amount of anti-seize paste at all the joints, and clamped down pretty hard on those pipe fittings to make sure it is all air-tight. The back of the piping expands to a 1 1/2" NPT nipple. The OD of that is just below 2", which is the same as the ID of my exhaust tube.

~Laszlo
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Old 07-26-2015, 11:08 AM
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Nice design Laszlo but please consider a few issues:
  1. Galvanized pipe. The zinc of the galvanizing will cook off in time but while it does it emits toxic fumes, a situation as dangerous as an exhaust leak inside the boat. The ABYC and USCG forbid the use of galvanized pipe in exhaust hot sections for this reason. If you have a torch available you can burn it off yourself under controlled conditions in a well ventilated area or it can be replaced ($$) with pipe not galvanized. Sorry to be the messenger here but your health and safety are at stake.
  2. The 2 hole pipe strap at the top. I hope it is a temporary arrangement because the pipe gets wicked hot and the structure it is clamped to is combustible. Safety again. You were planning on adding heat wrap to the piping, right?
  3. Water injection hose. It won't last 10 minutes laying against the hot pipe. We're talking in the neighborhood of 600°F in operation.
Again, nice design and it will be a good exhaust system after a few refinements.
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