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  #1   IP: 71.90.49.175
Old 09-26-2010, 02:07 PM
Laker Laker is offline
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Do I have to pull my A-4 ???

Boat bio:

I purchased a somewhat tired '67 Columbia 34 10 years ago. Had a ball sailing for 2 years , pulled out the low compression Atomic and replaced it with a better unit (product of a diesel upgrade) , ran the "new" engine for about 2 hrs then laid up the boat for a 2 year renovation which turned into 8 years.

Prior to the long delayed launch I decided to perform an engine run-up , and in preparing to do so made the really stupid mistake of force feeding water to the coolant system. When I cranked the engine it puked water out of the carb. Lots of water in the cylinders. The head put up a great fight against removal. After winning that battle I found that exhaust valves 1 , 3 & 4 were stuck open. After much effort I freed the valves , re-assembled and started the A-4. The oil was a mess of gray glop , water , and a mixture of carb cleaner & WD40 (from the valve war) , so I changed oil 4 times , running the engine between each change. After a week without a start up I found that all 3 valves were stuck AGAIN! The head came off real easy this time , and once more I freed up the offending valves , re-assembled and started. Another idle week passed , and I found that #3 was stuck. All in all I pulled the head 5 times , valve #3 being a real bas*ard. (The good news is that I got my elapsed time on the valve surgery down from 2 hr 45 minutes to 45 minutes flat!)

I ran the engine daily for 3-4 weeks to prevent another stuck valve , then weaned to every 2-3 days ; running well with no valve problem. All is well except that I think that one lifter is a little louder than the rest , possibly a result of the #3 lifter banging around loosely when I revved the engine with the valve stuck open ?

Aside from the possibly loud lifter, (and I could be overly sensitive to that , given the time I've spent with my arms wrapped around that engine) , my A-4 is running well. The angel on my right shoulder is telling me to pull the engine and do a valve inspection and possible sevice/repairs over the winter. The devil on the left shoulder is saying the the mill is running fine and I just got the boat re-assembled and launched for the first time in 100 years so don't make another mess.

Question to the readers : Do I have to pull my Atomic 4? If so , what should I expect to find/service in the valve system ? On one hand I am sick of working on my boat , but at the same time I want the auxiliary to be reliable and worry free.

That's my story and question ,

Charles on Lake Michigan
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  #2   IP: 216.115.121.253
Old 09-26-2010, 06:12 PM
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charles,
I have a '68 C-36. I know they are not the same, but I have lots of room to work on the engine.
The loud lifter could be just too much clearance. Sometime it takes more than once to get it right. Do you have room to adjust valves in the boat?

Or..
The valve is sticking open like you feared. A compression test will determine if this is so.

This might mean just working it loose with oil and time like has been presented on this forum many times.
I don't think either case means pulling the engine, but working on the thing in the boat can be cramped.

Russ
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Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
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  #3   IP: 71.90.49.175
Old 09-26-2010, 08:22 PM
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Russ -

The offending #3 exhaust valve is not currently sticking ; it is quite easy to tell if the engine is firing on all 4 cylinders. As to lifter adjustment , that is something that I know little about. As to access on the right (valve cover) side , I am limited. If I have to do any valve work , it means pulling the engine.

A '68 Columbia 36 , eh? I'll have to look that one up.

CJK
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Old 09-26-2010, 11:27 PM
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It's seems like you simply need a valve adjustment. This is a routine, but pain in the *%$$, job.
Getting it right takes some doing on a bench and in a tight engine room it can be downright difficult.
The good news is it's cheap in parts. Given your claim of valve tappet ignorance, I would suggest getting help. But stay there to watch and learn to do it yourself. The next question to do a forum search is "how to adjust valves"
others here have posted nice charts and diagrams for the job.

Russ
I'll look for some posts regarding this
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Old 09-27-2010, 05:19 AM
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Valve stem-tappet clearance adjustment

If I can learn to adjust valve tappet clearances, I suspect most can. Takes some patience, thought and preparation, and access via the valve cover on the port side of the engine (assuming it is mounted flywheel forward). There are a couple of good threads discussing the issues here from several viewpoints, and a FAQ posted by Don on the MMI Home page:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2927
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2930
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1932
http://www.moyermarine.com/faq/11.27.html

Getting the valve cover off lets a skipper have a good look at the lower ends of the valve stems and the springs, which reassures about odd sounds.

There are tricks to getting a good seal when replacing the valve cover. On our late model engine, I had a mechanic put a slight bend in the cover per Don's suggestion in the archives, and was meticulous about preserving the gasket surface on the engine and valve side.

My beginner's note to self:
The tappet is an intermediary part between the camshaft and the valve.
The valve springs compress when cam drives the tappet up into the valve stem base forcing the valve open, and relax when the tappet drops down allowing the valve to close. The tappet falls a short distance away from the base of the valve stem (the clearance gap).
Valve clearance clearance is the gap between a valve lifter and a valve stem that ensures the valve closes completely. Clearance too low: valve does not seal to shut properly. Clearance too high: valves get hammered.
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Last edited by rigspelt; 09-27-2010 at 05:42 AM.
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  #6   IP: 216.115.121.253
Old 09-27-2010, 11:36 AM
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Thanks Rigs,
Beat me toit!
one could print off this forum thread and keep it tucked in the pages of the manual.
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2927

One other idea about ticking sounds: the mechanical fuel pump(if you have one) is actuated by a pushrod that is kinda like a tappet. It might be too loose?
I don't have one, so I'm not the answer guy here.

R
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Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"
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Old 10-05-2010, 07:32 AM
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The general consensus here is that It would be in my interest to pull the engine prior to lift (which is soon , we had frost here last night) , not so much because of the sticky valve problems (solved) but to examine and adjust the tappets along with the entire machine. Looking back , I was a babe in the woods when a friend helped me plunk this A-4 , as is , into my Columbia 34 almost 10 years ago. It had been idle for at least a few years prior to finding a home in my boat , and for another 8 years since. I have recieved quite a crash course education in the past few months , enough to know that to achieve peace of mind cruising with my family in coming years I must finish that education.

Thanks to all ,

I'll probably be back.

Laker
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  #8   IP: 72.71.243.195
Old 10-05-2010, 08:23 AM
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I think you should hold off on pullling the engine or head again.
According to many of the engine Gurus on this site. A somewhat
noisy valve is not a bad thing. In fact a too tight valve can cause
damage whereas the noisy valve will not.

I would hold off until I heard from some of the experts such as
Roadnsky, HanleyClifford, Neil Dutton Just to name a few.

Regards

Art
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:12 AM
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The sledgehammer approach

Nice of Art to invite my opinion on the subject.

I used to build the Columbia 34's at the Costa Mesa factory so I'm familiar with your access issue. I should say also that I've never done a valve adjustment on an A4 (I'm blessed with a sweet running engine) so please evaluate my opinion accordingly.

I tend to be aggressive with repairs. When I had a stalling issue several years ago, I replaced the electric fuel pump, all the fuel hoses, the fuel filter and did a full carb rebuild. Yeah, I know, using a sledge hammer to kill an ant but I haven't had a single hiccup since. Suggest reading Shawn's epic Indigo thread about aggressive repairs and the comfort zone after they're done.

So if it were me, given the known history of your engine (water incursion and prolonged sitting), poor access, head been off five times already for the same problem and limited sailing season (meaning it'll be sitting some more), I'd yank it and make it a winter project. With it out I'd do a Helluva lot more than a valve adjustment, I'd take the opportunity to really go through her, clean her up, paint her up and dress her up.

In the end, I'd hope she'd be the sweetest running engine on Lake Michigan, trouble and worry free.

The disease I have and I suspect you share is that I could no longer trust the engine even if it's running well right now. You've been there before with the recurring valve issue. I just couldn't relax. Others can, I can't. Like I said, it's a disease.
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Old 10-05-2010, 09:18 AM
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Neil - You have a very healthy disease. Regards, Hanley
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Old 10-05-2010, 12:41 PM
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Sounds like this is a philosophical issue now.
I am a sledgehammer guy too. But for you it could be different.
An engine redo can mean drinking canned beer for a few months and taxing the patience of a loving spouse.
I'm sure you will find lots of things wrong inside your a-4 if you take it apart. Then you will not regret pulling it, but it will surely cost more than expected.

I thought about your valve-sticking issue; the springs may be broken or just whimped out. A new set will put more bounce in your step. This is just one of many things a teardown will reveal and get set right.
Just cleaning the goo from the oil pan will make you feel good too.

If you take it out of the boat, plan on running the (fixed)engine for a bit to tune it up before it goes back in. Much easier in the shop than in the boat.

Russ
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:09 AM
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At this point the ad hoc panel favors pulling my power plant...

Preliminary arrangements have been made. Hey - if you were and old Atomic Four (is there any other kind ?) would you rather spend the winter in the pitch black cold , or in a well lit heated building with someone tinkering with you?

Also - I like the idea of the electronic ingnition conversion. And the goop out of the oil pan , cosmetic detailing , etc.

Laker
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:12 AM
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Pre Op procedures

Now that you have made the right decision to bring the patient into your warm winter operating room, it would be a good idea to write down some base line information. I'll try to list a few as they come into view. Oil pressure throughout your operating range, ditto engine temperatures, voltage at various locations, amperage, fuel consumption rate, exhaust back pressure. Take detailed pictures especially where leaks old and new might be present. This is a good time to invest in digital gauges. I might get thrown out of the barracks for saying this but don't be in a hurry to spend money on electronic ignition unless cost is no object. Because of your valve issues I suggest a scrutinizing of both valves and guides with a view to replacement where tolerances dictate. BTW, "diesel upgrade" is an expensive side stepping of the issue. All the best, Hanley
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Old 10-07-2010, 10:20 AM
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Talking To blank or get off the pot!

Laker, I am not one of the "sledgehammer" approach type however I do understand how important piece of mind can be. Like Russ said plan your redo well and keep things happy at home.
A bit of advise though and this came from a good friend who runs a racing team~~Buy it right and cry once!~~ie don't skimp if your are going to go through the beastie.
I do recomend the electronic ignition and I particularly like the Indigo (sorry Don) because it has an indicator light that signals when it is firing the coil, not a bad idea for diagnosing problems. They seem to have less problems than the Pertronics set up just from the info gathered on this site. I have seen problems with the Pertronics set ups on many other applications as well. Mine has been running for about 8 years now and no problems at all. I also like that there is a spring and weight kit for the advance system after removing the drag of the points.
I gave up on waiting for my lil' beastie to expire about 10 years ago and it's been clicking and ticking for me for the past 26 years. The noises don't really bother me as the valve train is very noisy and not to sensetive as they don't see many rpm's.

Good luck!
Dave Neptune
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Old 10-07-2010, 07:55 PM
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Compression...

What does this collective think of 85# across the board ?

Laker
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:04 PM
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Sounds pretty darn good to me, most importantly that they're the same.
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Old 10-07-2010, 08:35 PM
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Capt Dutton ,

Off topic --- I would be very interested to have you share whatever you may know about the Columbia 34 being built with a trimmed down deck from a larger model. And , for that matter , your overall story from your Columbia yard days. Another thread , perhaps?

Laker
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:03 PM
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According to the MM manual the specification by actual design is 95 psi but as Neil stated it is the uniformity that is impressive. If you replace the rings, that alone might bring it back to specification. Compression does not seem to be the issue for you - valves and guides should be your focus.
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Old 10-07-2010, 09:45 PM
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I'll bet you could even get better readings. Sometimes a proper valve adjustment can improve compression, especially in diesels where a valve with a little more time open can mean more air gets in to be compressed.
All else being equal, a hot motor, with a good tune, at good cranking rpm, can give better readings than a cold one with a tired battery and loose valves.

I suppose you could consider pulling that motor up on deck and giving it a good full-blown tuneup and plopping in back in the boat without doing the "rebuild" thing. I'm sure you could even test run it in the cockpit. Kinda weird though. but that wouldn't stop me

Rus
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