Abrupt and Massive Inflow of Water Into Oil

[Peter]

Beta replacement - some other things that may need replacing

1) you will also need to either replace or modify your fuel tank as the diesel engine requires a return line to the tank
2) cooling water thruhull - may need a larger one
3) prop shaft and prop
4) engine controls

You may find this thread over on the Ericson forum of interest.

https://ericsonyachts.org/ie/threads/rebuild-or-repower.17915/page-2#post-136791

Best,

Peter

[ndutton]

To elaborate:
4) engine controls
a. Replace shift and throttle cables
b. Replace cockpit lever control, either riser or pedestal mount
c. Add stop cable (might be able to repurpose the A4 choke cable. Might.)
d. New or modified electrical harness to include a glow plug circuit with either a high amperage switch or relay system
e. New tachometer

[capnward]

I don't understand. If the yard pressure tested the engine by blocking off the cooling system minus the water pump, does that mean the pump was not blocked off, and was included n the pressure test? If so, no wonder there is a small pressure leak. I assume they meant that they blocked off the cooling system including the water pump. If you have an internal leak in the block, and especially if your A4 is raw water cooled, it's time for a new engine. I recommend a Moyer rebuilt A4, to avoid all the other modifications that go with changing to a diesel, not to mention the noise and the smell. What tests had the yard done before they told you there were no more tests to do except to find the internal leak? Did they test compression? Did they test the block and manifold together? Did the yard even check the water pump? All they had to do was remove the pump and look at the back of it for foam around the seal. It will be immediately apparent what the problem is. I hope you don't find that the next owner of your A4 only had to replace the pump to fix the leak into the crankcase, and you spent several thousand dollars unnecessarily.

[joe_db]

This is why I end up DIY'ing everything, I do a better job than random yard people
I would see all this with my own eyes before I did anything else that cost money. The pressure test is not beyond even basic DIY skills, even a caveman could do it
As for Beta diesel engines, the couple people I know that bought them love them. DIY'ing the engine swap will cost you double what a Moyer swap will cost you and probably triple at yard labor rates. The boat will be worth more at resale time, but not even close to what you will spend. Probably $0.25 on the dollar at best. The only reason I would swap over on my boat is if I have a need for a lot more range under power, which I presently do not.

[JOHN COOKSON]

? DOES NOT PASS THE "SNIFF" TEST IMO

OK, got an email from the boatyard today. They say "We blocked off the coolant system, minus the raw water pump, and pressure tested the engine and while the leak did not present itself as a major leak, there is an internal leak"..

How does this square with the title of this thread "abrupt and massive inflow of water into oil". I joining others in the opinion that the yard found nothing relevant at best or at worse are trying to sell you a unnecessary replacement.

ex TRUE GRIT

[HOTFLASH]

Another way water gets into engine oil

Once, in the fall while on the hard, because of a hatch leak, I had a bilge full of water after a huge downpour of rain. I had not yet opened the bilge drain plug and pump was not on. The water came up to at least the bottom of the engine which is canted a bit. My oil was milky, so I decided that the bilge water must have got into the oil pan on the aft end. I changed it 3 or 4 times. Has been ok ever since. Good Luck!

Mary

[Marian Claire]

Thought I would follow up on this thread. I am the lucky dog that was gifted the A-4 in this thread.
Things I noticed when I picked it up.
Water pump and alternator were off/missing. Hose between T-stat housing and manifold was cut. I would think all that happen to facilitate the testing of the water jacket.
Things I have done.
Drained out 2.5 to 3 quarts of "milkshake" and added clean oil.
Removed the spark plugs and added some oil to the cylinders and using my hand crank I turned the engine over. Things moved well and oil came out of the old pressure gauge connection. This time I remembered to set up a container to catch the oil.
I removed the manifold, what a job, and pressure tested it. Pumped it up to 15 psi and it read 14 psi an hour later.
I pressure tested the cooling system with the hose from the water pump to the T plugged. I did this a couple of times and the results are close to the same. Starting at 15 psi the pressure drops to 0 over about 25 minutes. I can hear the leak by listening at the drive for the water pump, the oil fill and the slash tube. I do not hear a leak from any of the spark plug holes.
Compression tests have been a bit erratic. I was using my hand crank and have been adding oil and PB Blaster to the valve/cylinder area via the spark plug holes. So that may have something to do with it.
All four have passed the thumb test.
I include these #s for comparison only. Moving from 1, closes to the flywheel, to 4. I averaged 50 psi, 63 psi, 60 psi and 70 psi using the hand crank.
I set up a system and was able to use the starter for this compression test. From 1 to 4 "dry" 90 psi, 92 psi, 85 psi and 80 psi. I added a bit of 10w 30 and read. 1 to 4 115 psi, 105 psi, 110 psi and 105 psi.
I plan to pull the valve cover off and check out the 1/4 inch pipe plug weakness mentioned in earlier posts.
As far as concerns about the yard NRS is using I can say this. I have had no business dealings with them. The couple of interactions I have had left me with a positive impression. I know several sailors with more experience than I that use this yard.
Dan
S/V Marian Claire

[Marian Claire]

OK. I pulled off the valve cover and the back wall of the valve area is smooth. No wire, plug etc. I pressurized the cooling system. Pressure dropped and I could hear the leak as before. The sound of the leak changed as I covered and uncovered the drain holes in the bottom of the valve area.
I do not have my manual with me and I am not that confident in my knowledge moving forward. It has been a long time since I was this deep in a A-4.
I think everything points to a direct leak from the cooling system to the crankcase. Does it make sense at this point to drop the oil pan and see if I can locate the leak? If I remove the head or water jacket side plate I will lose the ability to pressure test. Suggestions would be welcomed.

Dan
S/V Marian Claire

[joe_db]

Isn't there some kind of plug in the valve chamber that can corrode and leak water???

[Surcouf]

Isn't there some kind of plug in the valve chamber that can corrode and leak water???

I knew I had read something about a plug... See the words of the Master, item 2

"""""2) Remove the valve cover to inspect for water entering into the valve chamber through a hole in the very center of the water jacket behind the valve springs. In some of the later model engines (usually with serial numbers over 194,000), Universal used a 1/4" pipe plug to close a hole in that area. The problem is that they used plain steel plugs which have a strong potential to fail after the 25 or so years since they were installed."""

https://www.moyermarineforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=789&postcount=2

But Dan mentions that there is no plug... and that noise seem to come from crankshaft. There were recently several blocks with a crack on the floor of the cooling chamber above the crankshaft (freeze damage?). this tends to confirms Dan's opinion.

[ronstory]

One more idea would be to put a bit of water in the cooling jacket and then pressurize. If you get an instant milkshake in the oil pan... you know the answer... that's not good.

If you head down this drastic path, I would suggest pulling most of the oil out before trying this test. Less milkshake to remove is better.

[Marian Claire]

I had some time so I have started the oil pan removal. I left my manual on the boat, 360 miles to the east so I would appreciate some conformation on what I have done.
Removed 6 short and 2 long bolts from the aft housing.
Removed 3 short bolts from the lower half of the rear oil seal retaining flange.
Removed 6 short bolts from the flywheel housing.
Removed 12 short bolts from the block.

There seems to be two alignment pins. One is below the fuel pump and the other is on the opposite side near the flywheel end motor mount. Any tips on removing these? Thanks.

Dan
S/V Marian Claire

[Dave Neptune]

Dan, I would not remove the "locating pins" unless absolutely necessary. They are "pressed" in and need to be wiggled to get out. Unless they come out easily with a pull or mild twist with pliers it is possible to damage the holes that the pins are pressed into. They could be really stuck after all of these years.

Dave Neptune

[Marian Claire]

Thank you Dave. You saved me a bunch of work and possible damage.

I got the pan off and found the smoking gun. I pressurized the cooling system and could see small bubbles and liquid dripping from the flat area between the #1 and #2 cylinders. I poked around and small chunks fell off. Ended up with a line 1" long and 1/8" wide that I could push a probe thru. I guess I was into the water jacket area. I plan to pull off the water jacket cover and see how access to the leak is from that side.
There was some rust on the lower end of the #2 connecting rod. Not sure if it was there all along or if it just happened due to my pressure tests forcing water thru the leak.
Any chance to repair the leak? Is the block trash because another area may be ready to start leaking?

Dan
S/V Marian Claire

[Dave Neptune]

If the leak is in the cylinder area sleeving a common process should do fine. Downside is, what shape is the rest of the block in?

Was the engine run in saltwater and raw water cooled? If so it could be getting thin in some not so good areas.

Dave Neptune