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Old 07-22-2012, 08:53 AM
keithems keithems is offline
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Question fuel pump rebuild needed?

as noted elsewhere, i recently r, r, and r-ed my a4. until yesterday i had been running it off an outboard tank / primer bulb combo attached to my primary filter, thence to the mechanical fuel pump, carb, etc. Motor ran fairly well, but you had to give the bulb a few squeezes every 2 minutes or so.

yesterday, i reconnected the main tank. Flushed it with fuel using the fuel pump priming lever...cloudy at first -- no surprise -- then it cleared. Motor started, ran fine for about a minute, then slowed, then quit. Would only restart if i worked the priming lever until stiff.

Eventually, i found i could keep the motor running fine as long as i worked the priming lever every 30 sec. or so.

i've tightened everything that can be tightened.

i'm assuming the fuel pump is weak or inop and will have to be rebuilt. no biggie -- but am i correct?

Also, since the motor rebuilders were earnest but not very competent, did they screw something up here also? Is there something internal that runs the fuel pump cam that they may have forgot to reinstall? in which case, i'll install an electric pump and not rebuild the mechanical one.

pls. let me know what you think...
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:00 AM
keithems keithems is offline
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btw....

i have a gallon or so of the cloudy, water logged fuel i flushed thru the tank....

what do you guys suggest i do with it?

i can probably burn some of it in my van, but not all of it....
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:32 AM
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Does the priming bail move when the engine is running?
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Old 07-22-2012, 09:46 AM
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good question, thank you

i'll look when i get to da boat

i also assume i can turn the flywheel with the starting crank and see....

i'm also planning now to disconnect the fuel line to the carb and hit the starter and see if fuel flows -- or can i do that also with the starting crank? would rather not use the ig system with fuel flowing....
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:01 AM
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If it turns out to not be a problem/missing push rod for the mechanical fuel pump. I would suspect an air leak or a bad primer bulb. Both of these will cause shut down and can be overcome by pumping the bulb. The shortness of the run time makes me think air leak is the most likely of the two. Check/tighten/remove and reconnect every connection. Sometimes just tightening does not do any good. BTDT
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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Exclamation

i'm thinking it's a missing push rod / bushing, but i'll know better when i get to the boat.

i don't have a primer bulb on my main tank set up -- just on the o/b tank.

though when i reconnected the main tank yesterday, i did try to add a primer bulb, but i couldn't get it to pump fuel from the main tank.....so i removed it and used the priming lever on the fuel pump.....hmmmmm....
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Old 07-22-2012, 10:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
as noted elsewhere, i recently r, r, and r-ed my a4. until yesterday i had been running it off an outboard tank / primer bulb combo attached to my primary filter, thence to the mechanical fuel pump, carb, etc. Motor ran fairly well, but you had to give the bulb a few squeezes every 2 minutes or so.

yesterday, i reconnected the main tank. Flushed it with fuel using the fuel pump priming lever...cloudy at first -- no surprise -- then it cleared. Motor started, ran fine for about a minute, then slowed, then quit. Would only restart if i worked the priming lever until stiff.

Eventually, i found i could keep the motor running fine as long as i worked the priming lever every 30 sec. or so.

i've tightened everything that can be tightened.

i'm assuming the fuel pump is weak or inop and will have to be rebuilt. no biggie -- but am i correct?

Also, since the motor rebuilders were earnest but not very competent, did they screw something up here also? Is there something internal that runs the fuel pump cam that they may have forgot to reinstall? in which case, i'll install an electric pump and not rebuild the mechanical one.

pls. let me know what you think...
keithems,

I had a the same problem.

First, stay away from the main tank until you can completely empty it. Then give it a really good flushing to get all the gunk out. Replace the hoses. There are threads here for that.

AS FOR YOUR FUEL ISSUE:

Remove the hose/connection between the pump and carb on the carb side.

Turn the engine over and observe the fuel flow. This will tell you if the prob is the pump or a clogged carb. I would bet on the carb.

I bought the carb rebuild kit from MM. It is a very easy and not a time consuming project to do. The instructions are very easy to follow.


Remove the carb
Take out all the parts that will be replaced
Have access to compressed air supply
Really clean all the ports w/carb cleaner
Use the compressed air to blow out all the ports
Repeat.

Bill

Last edited by wmmulvey; 07-22-2012 at 11:31 AM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wmmulvey View Post
keithems,

I had a the same problem.

First, stay away from the main tank until you can completely empty it. Then give it a really good flushing to get all the gunk out. Replace the hoses. There are threads here for that.

AS FOR YOUR FUEL ISSUE:

Remove the hose/connection between the pump and carb on the carb side.

Turn the engine over and observe the fuel flow. This will tell you if the prob is the pump or a clogged carb. I would bet on the carb.

I bought the carb rebuild kit from MM. It is a very easy and not a time consuming project to do. The instructions are very easy to follow.


Remove the carb
Take out all the parts that will be replaced
Have access to compressed air supply
Really clean all the ports w/carb cleaner
Use the compressed air to blow out all the ports
Repeat.

Bill
I can E-MAIL you or anyone a complete HOW TO PICTORIAL if you like. It is a WORD DOCUMENT file. Just send me a reply at wmmulvey@aol.com

Last edited by wmmulvey; 07-22-2012 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 07-22-2012, 01:56 PM
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I have an early model A4 with a mechanical fuel pump which I rebuilt using MMI's kit...it was simple to do - anyone with the proper tools and a little bit of know how can do it.

Mechanical fuel pumps have been used on engines since day one and have a long record of reliability if properly maintained.

That's why I will continue to use one.

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Old 07-22-2012, 03:39 PM
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I am a fan of the mechanical pump too as a follower of the KISS principle.
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:49 AM
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the rest of the story

will write more tomorrow -- pretty wiped out now....

but the fuel pump was fine -- needed the pushrod -- which i found and installed...and things seemed to be fine

on my boat -- c&c 30 -- getting the fuel flow started after shutting it off, emptying the water from the fuel pump and my water separator, etc., etc. is pretty hard and time consuming. however, i kept at it and eventually my a4 was running well....so decided to motor out for a sail. about 6 minutes from the marina...very near the harbor wall...a4 stopped dead....no restart!

as i've mentioned, the $40 or so i've paid towboat us is worth its weight....

they towed me back to my dock. said good nite to the crew and then pulled hoses, filters, etc. to see why no fuel flow....and there was NO fuel flow...finally blew into the hose coming from the main tank [i had had enough bourbon by then to not really care what ever yellowish brown liquid it was i was dealing with ].....it was totally blocked at first but then i could feel it release.....reconnected all the hoses...tightened everything...and ...VAROOM! the guy at the dock across the way who never goes out and/or sails was not happy...but i was!

hopefully...that's the end of the story...but now i won't know for sure till next weekend....

is there a way to really clean out my fuel pickup tube? or better...to drain the tank from the bottom? maybe i should drill a drain hole?

k
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:48 AM
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Thumbs down cleaning the gas tank

Quote:
Originally Posted by keithems View Post
maybe i should drill a drain hole?k
This question has been asked on the forum before and the answer is always a strong "NO". You should never try to drill into your gas tank unless it is empty, thoroughly cleaned and dried (and preferably off the boat, but I don't know how you could really clean the tank without taking it off the boat first). The risks are just too great with the heat and/or sparks generated with drilling.

In the not too distant past I went through this:
  • removed the tank from the boat after having pumped out all the gas possible
  • cleaned the tank several times with solvents and finally with lots of water (including putting small quantities of gravel in the tank and vigorously shaking it all up to break up all the gunk)
  • in my case I applied a "POR 15" treatment before reinstalling the tank with all new fuel lines
When the tank is off the boat and disassembled, you can really judge its condition well- including the fuel pickup tube. Some have reported serious corrosion on this tube and have even found filters/screens in pieces at the bottom of the tank.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:58 AM
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Thumbs up almost there

keithems,

Now that we seem to be narrowing down the problem(s), if it was me, I'd replace the fuel tank..the gunk you blew out of the pickup is still in the tank and will eventually work its way back into the fuel line you've worked so hard to get open.

I replaced my aging aluminum tank (I actually had a pinhole leak so it was a no brainer for me) with a poly tank from Moeller of similar dimensions and couldn't be happier. If you have the time & your tank is physically in good shape, you can do as Kelly and clean it, but it is important not to reintroduce the gunk into the fuel system..it will happen right at the breakwater near the harbor entrance for sure, and then another $40 to the Tow Boat...

At that rate, about 4 tows is a new fuel tank.
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:42 PM
keithems keithems is offline
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i'm sure you're right

a few hundred for a new tank is no biggie for me

however....

before i r, r, and r'ed the motor, i did not have a dirt / contamination problem with the tank. even now, the fuel i flushed thru yesterday has water, to be sure..but is not that dirty....

so maybe -- with the right additive, i can dissolve the gunk? or if i fill the tank [15-20 gal], it will dilute the gunk? or i can remove the pickup tube and replace it if necessary?

biggest qualm bout a new tank is half the summer's gone already -- and i WANT TO SAIL! i'm tired of playing mechanic..so....

how do i remove the tank? what's involved? mine looks like it's in there forever, and i'll have to cut thru the cockpit floor to get it out...tell me that isn't so! [i have a c&c 30]

the $40 for towboat us covers unlimited towing here for the entire year...though i know they won't be so nice if i'm calling them every weekend

plus...when my a4 quit last summer, i put my old, reliable johnson 9.9 on...not ideal for sure....but will be a good backup till the a4 is 100%.....in fact it probably quit because i had started planning to get the johnson off of there

really, the biggest issue is removing the tank -- who knows how i do that and how difficult it will be?

also....who knows what to do with the dirty fuel i removed?
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:03 PM
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Keithems I tried half measures, sucking out crud, adding additives, fresh fuel, blowing back thru the system to clear the pick-up tube, changing filters, repeat, etc. All they did was postpone the inevitable and cause me more stressful moments when the engine shut down due to clogs. Granted I fought it for a few years but when I finally pulled the tank and cut into it and cleaned it I knew I had done the right thing. YMMV. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:40 PM
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Quote:
...to drain the tank from the bottom? maybe i should drill a drain hole?
VIOLATION - - VIOLATION

The Coasties specifically forbid openings, ports or fittings on permanently installed gasoline tanks anywhere but on the top of the tank.

The Coast Guard allows threaded cleanout holes on the top of the tank. If this sounds attractive to you there are a couple of cautions to consider:
  1. The tank must be fully drained of gasoline and filled with an inert material to displace all residual fumes and air (oxygen) before cutting. My opinion is this is best left to pro's. Blowing yourself to smithereens doesn't solve the tank crud problem.
  2. Once cleaned and the new threaded closure plug is in place the tank must be pressure tested to 5 PSI. Permanent deformation is not cause for test failure as long as leaks don't develop.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:52 AM
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looked at my tank

i think it's aluminum -- looks easy to remove if i have to

does anyone know if he pickup tube can be removed & replaced without removing the tank? as i said, i have pretty good access to it.

actually as of now, i think the fuel problem is resolved. i found i could run for increasing intervals, but then when the motor sputtered and shut down, i had to empty the fuel pump bowl and my groco water separator and then pump a quart or so of fuel thru the line just before the polishing filter [took the fuel line off the pol filter for this..]

fortunately, the water concentration has steadily declined to where it doesn't seem to be a problem for now. also, i put in 1/2 container of k-100, which claims to emulsify water. ran the motor at the dock mostly in gear for 30 minutes or so last nite with no problem.....

except.....[and there seems to always be an except... ]

i had water dripping very slowly out the manifold stud holes [will discuss further in another thread on manifold studs]

and steam in the exhaust...

i know the steam may be related to the water leaks from the manifold holes

....or is it just from the water remaining in the gas, whcih was emulified by the k-100?

will continue on the manifold stud thread...
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Old 07-29-2012, 02:50 AM
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unfortunately...

things are getting worse....

pumped 4 gal of cloudy fuel out today, using the lever on the fuel pump

i assume it's cloudy cuaz the k100 supposedly emulsified the water...

put in 4 gal of fresh gas....

changed water separator filter and emptied sediment bowl on fuel pump

engine ran fine...so headed out to enjoy it...

it quit about 100 ' out from the marina...thank g-d for my johnson 9.9, which brought me back

i repeated this routine 4 times this evening! each time, i could not pump fuel because the pickup tube appears to be gunked up....could not clear it by blowing into the line...had to disconnect line, connect to a hand pump, and use water or later mm oil to prime the pump and line and clear it..then reconnected, started up, went out, and the motor quit 100 yrds out..as noted...

does anyone know of any way to dissolve that gunk? what about if i fill the tank with another 15 gal of gas -- to dilute it? or is there a way to remove the pickup tube and clean it?

i think i'm at the end of the road here, and barring any good ideas from you-all, i'm gonna have to remove and clean or replace the tank...or limp along for the rest of the season with an outboard tank..

or is it possible the problem is a weak fuel pump rather than a dirty tank?
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:48 AM
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If you have not already read this. http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=tank http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...highlight=tank
My tank had baffles in it and the only way to get rid of 35 yrs of buildup was to scrub it by hand with a Brillo pad. Be safe if you choose to cut the tank. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:32 AM
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how did u get inside it to scrub it?

how do you suggest i go about emptying it before removal?

it has about 4 gal in it now...i hand pumped 4 gal out yesterday using the fuel pump lever...i do not want to continue that way...

can i crank the starter to run the pump? i'll disconnect the lead to the coil, i suppose, as well as put the fuel line to carb in a fuel container

also -- any thoughts about pumping out from the filler? or replaceing the pickup tube?

i do not anticipate cleaning it myself unless it's really easy. i'll take it somewhere or i if have to, looks like i can get a new moeller plastic tank for under $200.

luckily on my c&c 30, it looks easy to get out -- just have to snip the straps and slide her out the lazarette.
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:39 AM
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Keith,
What was that feature in Reader's Digest, Points to Ponder? Here are a few:
  1. If you're thinking of cutting open the tank to clean it thoroughly, why not just replace it instead? You'll end up with a perfectly clean tank without a patched hole.
  2. If you're removing the tank from the boat, why not replace it? It's the same work without the cleaning, therefore actually less work.
  3. Whether you replace the tank or not, where did the crud come from in the first place? Once cleaned or replaced, you don't want crud to re-enter the tank. Possible sources are the O-ring on the fuel fill deck fitting and your fuel supplier. I don't use the local fuel dock preferring to schlep my fuel to the boat in 5 gallon jugs filled at the local high volume gas station. That way I'm not inheriting whatever nastiness might be in the marina's underground low turnover tank.
The Moeller poly tanks have a good reputation on this forum and seem to be reasonably priced.
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:52 AM
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yes

u must have posted before i did my last -- pls read above

actually, i'm wondering the opposite...i've been bringing in auto fuel in small amts from the nearest gas station...maybe the formulation is more prone to separation / water accum, etc.?

do u think i should try filling the tank with marine gas [ours here is pretty good], hoping it dilutes the crud.

the problem now is not crud getting to the motor -- it just that something is continually plugging the dip tube or outlet....

nice guy at nearby slip last nite gave me "e-z zorb" he swears by it. it was after i added it that the plugging began...i wonder if it gummed things up and if i can dilute the gum with more fuel.

as far as the cause of the crud -- it appears to be an aluminium tank 20-30 yrs old...so who knows? it may just be time for a new plastic one.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:23 AM
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Yeah, you and I were typing at the same time. Call me Slowhand.

Ask my opinion on what should be done and you'll get an extreme response every time, I admit it. If I can't afford a new boat then I'll be satisfied with an old boat with all new stuff, not much difference in reliability.

Except for the A-4 of course. She's my girl . . . .

As for new stuff, here are some examples:
  • Even with a smooth running engine I replaced the wiring, control panel, fuel system (everything except the tank) and exhaust up to and including the waterlift. My key switch is a regularly replaced item, every 2 - 3 years.
  • My mast lighting didn't work. My solution was to remove the mast for 3 months and refurb. The only thing original is the extrusion itself. New wiring, fittings, paint, standing and running rigging, spreaders, antennae, lighting and added radar at the same time.
  • Same with plumbing, electrical, cushions, windows, interior finishes, exterior finishes, you name it.
And so on. Everything is less than 5 years old and functions like a boat less than 5 years old. It works for me.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:51 AM
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how did u get inside it to scrub it?

how do you suggest i go about emptying it before removal?

My situation was unusual. A custom SS tank shaped to fit in a homemade boat. Re-fabricating would have been mega $$$. Details in the treads I referenced in post 19. As suggested if you have a standard tank, replacing may be the best way to go.
I used a hand pump thru the fill tube.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:51 AM
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i get it

pretty much the same, esp. re. the a4:

since i got it in 2008....i don't even want to get started....

not to mention all the upgrades from mmi

just this year....

a4 was r, r, and r'ed -- cam was broken, valves were renewed, new rod bearings and rings, oil screen, head redone, oil adjuster, rear seal...

since it was out.....new cutlass, stuffing box, shaft hose.....shaft rehabbed....

new muffler last yr

many carb rebuilds and adj. needle valve kits, indigo pcv valve kit

just did new studs for the manifold

and now it looks like a new fuel tank is in my future...

so, neil....should i fill this one first and see if that dilutes the crud? course if i do and it does not, i have 15 gal or so to get out...

and how do you recommend i get the fuel out of there, even if it's only the 4 gal in there now?...my marina neighbors are growing impatient with me anyways....said i need to pay a mechanic to get the motor going....i told them i am the &*(^&%&( mechanic...

k
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