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  #1   IP: 63.159.49.146
Old 10-17-2004, 07:33 PM
Don Boehl Don Boehl is offline
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Gas vs Diesel

I just purchased a 1925 catboat with a Atomic 4 engine. The engine needs to be replaced. I do not know weather to replace the Atomic 4 or put in a small diesel. What are the pros and cons.

Some sailors I have spoken to say diesel is better. I personally do not like the smell of diesel and the noise, but am concerned about the safety of the gasoline fumes.

Some of the sailors mentioned that the Atomic 4 was not a good engine.

Fuel economy is also a concern.

Any advice about this topic will be appreciated.

Regards,

Don Boehl
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Old 10-18-2004, 03:40 PM
Leo Crowley Leo Crowley is offline
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Smile A4 vs diesel

Whoever told you the A4 is not a good engine needs to have their head read. It is rock solid, cheap to operate and parts and service are widely available. It is quieter than a diesel and packs a lot of power for its size.
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  #3   IP: 67.174.241.46
Old 10-19-2004, 03:26 AM
ericson_35 ericson_35 is offline
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gas Vs.Diesel

Having worked on everything from 5,000 HP MTU diesels down to the 30 hp A-4's I can say the A-4 is a pleasure to work on as long as you have decent access. I think most complaints form anti-A-4 folks are the ones that don't take care of them or use the "It's now broke so I guess it's time to fix it" approach. Neglect is the enemy of any mechanical device and I see it so often.

The cost of a diesel refit in a 1925 boat is going to run about $8,000 + when all is said and done (new engine mounts, new prop, maybe a shaft, shift/throttle controls, gauge panel, wiring, fuel lines, return line fitting to tank, etc.). So, ask yourself, is it worth it? And will I get my money back? Frankly, probably not.

If I had my choice and my boat (1972 Ericson 35) came with a diesel, I'd be fine with that, but it has an A-4 and I have no intention of switching. Yeah, it needs a tune up now and then, but the costs are minimal compared to rebuilding an injection pump or injectors or other diesel issues that pop up now and then (priming, fuel must be immaculately clean, etc.).

In 6 years now with the A-4 I have had minimal problems, but I look after it.

If I was going around the world, or very long distance, I'd contemplate another boat with a diesel but never refit my current boat as I'd never get my money back. But if you are like me and put on 125-150 hours (max) a year in just docking and getting in/out of the marina, that's not much time on an engine. Yes Diesels are generally built heavier duty, but that comes with a price, Mo Money.

As for safety, I have no concerns about the gas in my boat as long as the fuel tank is robust, fuel lines are inspected regularily, the bilge is checked for fuel as well. Plus run blower before starting! Personally, I open the engine hatch when starting to verify no leaks, odd noises, or other issues. Good engineering and safety practice.

Diesels may get a little better fuel economy, (my A-4 is at about 3/4 gallon an hour at full throttle on my boat - 13,000 lbs.) but the one triple set of 3,300 HP diesels I was overseeing burned 130 gallons an HOUR EACH! and with three of them at full bore it was 400 gallons an hour at 30 knots. I kid you not, the fuel lines were one inch in diameter to each engine! That's burning fuel!

Hope that answers some concerns, if not pop me off some more questions.
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Old 10-20-2004, 11:13 AM
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David Masury David Masury is offline
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I have had my share of troubles with my Atomic 4 over the last nine years, but I have learned why and how to correct the varying issues. My engine is now safe, reliable, quiet, and does not require replacing. I looked at a diesel replacement and did not see any advantage to a well running A4. You might want to consider having yours looked and possibly rebuilt as a starting point. Don Moyer has great books and parts available and is a wealth of generous information to help you along. Then you will have an engine that you can maintain and service anywhere you boat will take you.
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Old 10-20-2004, 09:43 PM
Don Boehl Don Boehl is offline
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Diesel vs A-4e

Thanks to all responses.
The tact I will take is to pull the Atomic 4, when the boat is delivered, and have Don Moyer inspect the engine for repair. The fact is, I would like to keep the boat in as original condition as possiable including the engine.

Best regards,

Don Boehl
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  #6   IP: 66.177.24.65
Old 10-20-2004, 10:59 PM
dduelin dduelin is offline
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When some know-it-all starts talking about how gasoline engines are bombs just waiting to go off you might ask him if he has propane onboard and how does he stow his dinghy engine fuel. Got a diesel on that RIB, bub?

Seriously, several years ago I researched just how many fires or explosions each year are blamed on gas engines. The USCG website has 5 years of very detailed statistics. Out of some 12 million powered vessels, 1 or 2 boat operators each year somehow contrive to blow their boats up with propulsion fuel. Sadly, sometimes he/she takes a few people with them so the fatal numbers might be up to 7-8 people a year. Of course some years there are none. On the bright side, reports are it is usually a powerboat that goes up and not an auxiliary sailboat. Years and years sometimes go by without reported incidents of propulsion fuel fires/explosions on sailing auxiliaries - and the USCG does not break out whether gas, diesel, or dylithium crystals powered the unlucky barky. Still, less than 10 people each year die from propulsion fuel fires/explosions and that is spread across untold millions of hours of operation. More people than that die from lightning strikes or that ghastly flesh-eating bacteria. Even ant bites and bee stings claim more lives in the USA than dangerous gasoline engines do. The chances of blowing up your A4 powered sailboat are remote indeed. Use the blower and keep an eye on fuel system integrity and chances are good that you will not be one of the statistics. Heck, from the numbers it appears you can ignore the blower and never cast an eye on the fuel system and still not be blown to kingdom come! Just kidding, always follow safety procedures and keep things if working order.

Propane. Each year there are 10-20 deaths from COOKING fuel fires/explosions. Amazingly, nearly that many kick the bucket from improper anchoring and a similar group die from falling off gunnels and transoms. I kid you not, the USCG takes great detail in recording the ways boaters meet their maker. A few, but about twice as many that get blown up from gas engines, get killed when seating structures collapse. Then there are the 20 or so that slip and take a fatal fall but come to rest on the boat. Slipping and falling overboard is a separate group. 400 or so drown within a few feet of a perfectly good boat. Drop these numbers at a cocktail party and see the eyebrows go up.

Dave Doolin
1969 M30 Angel's Wing
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Old 10-28-2004, 07:58 PM
Vicente Vicente is offline
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Stay with your A 4

This was my first season with my 'new' boat, a Pearson 323 with an A 4 in it. Initially I had to tune it up and do some adjustmnents to it - all minor- and it rewarded me with trouble free use throughout the season. Mine can cruise strongly at 2500 rpm and idles below 900. Does that sound o.k.? I look forward to keeping this jewel of an engine as long as rust does not invade it. If you do not like the smell of diesel oil and the noise keep the A 4 it has more lives than any cat I have known.

Vicente
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Old 10-31-2004, 08:25 PM
Dennis L. Dennis L. is offline
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Gas vs Diesel

Hi Don,

Noticed your thread and could not help but try a reply. Is a diesel any better than the A-4? I really believe that you can repower with the A-4 much cheaper than replacing with a diesel. I believe that the avg. cost to bring in a new diesel is around $10,000 if you out-source the work. You can have your A-4 rebuilt by Moyer for less than half that amount is my guess.

I've owned my current sailboat with an A-4 for over 2 yrs now and have found this little engine to be an absolute jewel. Quiet, smooth running, brain dead easy to work on (I'm speaking of myself) and as reliable as anyone could ask. I burn a steady 1gal per hour. That is higher than a diesel, but with a 20 gal. gas tank, I haven't been hurting for fuel. I suppose if I was to consider doing long term blue water sailing and voyaging, I would probably want the diesel.

I say stick with the A-4, upgrade it to fresh water cooling, install electronic ignition, consider electric fuel pump... mechanical is ok too... matter of personal choice, service regular and it will last another 30 yrs.

Good luck

Regards,

Dennis
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Old 04-16-2005, 01:17 AM
higgs higgs is offline
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Gas is OK

25+ years using gas engines and I have yet to blow up.
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Old 10-20-2005, 10:57 PM
Steve Cartwright Steve Cartwright is offline
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Gas-diesel blues

I'd like to join the discussion of gas vs. diesel. Reliable sailor friends say go diesel for sure...of course, they're not paying for the conversion. I have an Islander 32, built in 1964, with an Atomic Four that three different boat yard mechanics (all of them familiar with A-4s) said is beyond hope. So I guess I need to convert or buy a rebuilt Atomic...anyone know the cost?

A guy down the road is selling a Universal diesel, 16hp I think. Is that designed as a replacement for gas Universal Atomic 4? Gee, buy an old boat and you have these Big Questions. One guy said why not just sail your boat and forget the motor. I've done that this Summer. I'm not quite ready to take people out for an afternoon sail that could last two weeks.
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:12 PM
K Schubert K Schubert is offline
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Hello. Great forum! I have been an Atomic 4 owner now for for twelve years. My first experience with these engines came in 1987 on a 1965 Islander 32 (McGlassen/Wayfarer). The boat had great access and the original engine perfermed great for years. In 1994 I bought my current vessel, a 1968 C&C Corvette, which was also powered with an Atomic Four. This engine was a well maintained, raw-water cooled "late model". The Corvette has an aperture between the keel and rudder, and was equipped with a two blade prop which was noisy and underpowered. I researched all available props and became very familiar with Don Moyer and his excellent services. After changing to Electronic Ignition, I chose the Indigo three blade propeller. There is not a finer auxillary motor to be found than the Atomic Four. The smooth operation, economy and efficiency are unmatched by any diesel. This gasoline engine used to be a thing of the past but now seems to be a thing of the future. I wouldn't like the smell of diesel in my cabin. The Crankcase Ventelator now eliminates any fumes or blow-by down below. My boat is VERY efficient, and runs at optimum speed, temperature and RPM. Believe me.... these ol dudes know what they're doin!! I have two spares in my garage. I use this boat for coastal and Bahama crusing and it has never let me down. Attention to the fuel system is necessary for safety and efficiency. Large boat? Long, deepwater crossings? Yes, I would like a giant deisel. For those of us that play in the middle, the sweet Universal is quite enough. Thanks to Don, Brenda and Ken for the great advice, service, parts and ongoing innovation. KS
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Old 07-10-2006, 01:04 PM
jimjuliem jimjuliem is offline
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Risk management.

Regarding fires resulting from the use of gasoline fuel. I just talked to a person who experienced a fire that sunk a boat because of diesel fuel leaking onto a hot manifold. Gasoline is more volatile and represents additional risk (over diesel) of fire if not properly contained. However, as you will notice in the car you probably drive, there are few or no fires caused by gasoline engines that are properly maintained. The key, of course, is proper inspection and maintenance. From all that I have been able to find out it is my opinion that the additional risk of having a gasoline fueled engine is acceptible if the generally accepted percautions are taken. There is always risk. (diesel powered boats often carry gasoline for the tender!) Managing the fire risk through prevention, detection, and extinguishment (in that order of priority) is the key, in my opinion. I have had an atomic 4 for 3.5 years and I am pleased with the power, smoothness, and reliability. It is relatively easy to work on and since you are here you know parts are available. I previously had a boat with a diesel engine and I have not missed it.
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Old 09-17-2006, 11:30 PM
dvdcnl dvdcnl is offline
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gas vs diesel

I read that a diesel needs to be run hard to keep it running good. The worst thing for it is to idle out of a marina, raise the sails and shut it down. It never gets up to temperature. That's bad for a gas engine but even worse for a diesel.

A diesel is supposed to get better fuel economy than gas. You need to consider how much the difference between diesel and gas will save you over the life of the engine and if the extra expense of the diesel engine would be worth it. If and when you sell the boat, how much will the diesel engine add to the value?
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Old 02-09-2007, 01:06 AM
Motor John Motor John is offline
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Thumbs up 9 Years and counting...

Nine years ago I bought a dilapidated Catalina 30 with an Atomic 4, although the engine still ran with a bad rod barring and burned valve it was wasnít something I would want on board in that shape. I did a DIY overhaul with Donís help.

Nine years later the engine still runs smooth quiet and strong. Best of all I know the engine now and am not afraid to make any repairs and maintenance is a snap.

Iíve been told the A-4 is a ďbadĒ engine, but that just doesnít seem to be the case.

When a diesel is running itís great, but when it goes wrong itís more difficult and expensive to repair.
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Old 02-09-2007, 07:49 AM
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Don Moyer Don Moyer is offline
 
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Good for you John!

Don
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Old 02-10-2007, 09:24 AM
JimG JimG is offline
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I looked around briefly right after buying my boat and found I could get a new "compatible" diesel for about $8K, deklivered. If you don't install it yourself, it might be another $5K or so, depending on the boat.

Don can estimate a rebuild, but I'm sure it's less than 1/3 that total. There are a lot of serviceable A4s for sale (from other people that listen to the "convert to diesel" drum) on craigslist, ebay, etc for less than a rebuild.
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Old 02-10-2007, 12:42 PM
Jesse Delanoy Jesse Delanoy is offline
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We've had a 1977 Catalina 30, with original Atomic 4, for six years. With minor issues, the engine has generally been reliable. Last summer, in the middle of dealing with some water-in-the-oil problems, we discovered we had a bad bearing, and decided to repower.

The whole project, including a new, rebuilt engine from Moyer Marine, and installation at Zahniser's in Solomon's Maryland, ran about $10,000, much cheaper that a diesel retrofit would have cost, plus I still have the excess horsepower that an A-4 provides over a 16 hp diesel. Best of all, over the five previous years, I've learned how to do a lot of maintenance on the engine, learning that will be put to good use in keeping the new one running smooth.

Don and Ken were tremendous help to me throughout the entire process.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:06 PM
hd78half hd78half is offline
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A4 vs Diesel

Had to join in.

Have used the A4 for 16 years w/o any problems. Am rebuilding it now only because we've gutted the interior for an upgrade, and it's a great time to pull and re-install the motor.

Am doing all the engine work myself. Parts for the rebuild and some minor upgrades (electronic ignition) purchased from Moyer at $680.00. Minor parts from hardward store (paint, nuts & bolts, hose, etc) another $100.00. Machine shop charge to perform precise measurements on the crank, camshaft, rods, bearings, cylinders, and hone the cylinders was $95.00

Marina fees will be only the use of the travelift for hoisting engine out and dropping it back in are $75.00 each time, total $150.00. This was ultimately easier, for the money, then trying to use the boom.

Found the A4 extremely easy to disassemble and am expecting no problems during re-assembly. Very simple engine.

Gas is cheaper than diesel, and smells better. Diesel fuel injectors, filters, etc. are expensive and hard to work on.

My vote for Great Lakes, coastal and Caribbean cruising: the A4.
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Old 06-03-2007, 04:10 PM
Bacchanal Bacchanal is offline
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I chose the A4

I went through your exact deliberation a year ago. The cost difference was the big driver for me. For the marina to install a new Yanmar and hand me back my boat was going to cost about $16K (new exhaust, controls, gauges, etc.) and for me to repower with an A4, where I do most of the work myself, the total cost is going to be around $7K (new cables, hoses, alternator, fresh water cooling, etc.) For $9K I can spend a lot of weekends getting this done. I'm still struggling with the changes I want to make. It's the usual, "While I'm at it" thing where the to-do list gets longer rather than shorter, but it will be worth it. We had the A4 for 40 years and 2 rebuilds and it was always reliable.
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Old 07-13-2007, 02:06 PM
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Keep your A-4

Watch out, you are on an Atomic-4 Lover's site. But, in my experience with almost 30 years with an A-4, you should definitely stay with it. I, with MM wonderful help recently repowered my Ranger 30 with an A-4 that is older than original, but in better shape. Everything fit and no surprises that are always encountered when repowering with diesel. Also, diesel smells, the fuel gets moldy, and the engine is heavier than your A-4.

All the talk about "gasoline danger" is nonsense.

Jim
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Old 07-22-2007, 01:19 AM
seagrave79 seagrave79 is offline
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One Really Good Reason

Though I have had my doubts over the past year, I would now say, Keep the A4. In addition to all the reasons given above, here's my main one: I can work on it. After the work I have now done and the improvement in performance I have seen, I am reasonably confident that I can do most repairs on my little engine. And as long as I could get to a phone, I think I could manage just about everything up to and including a major fix. I couldn't say that with a diesel. For a cruiser, that's important.

Just make sure you have your spares.

Walt
1969 Pearson Coaster #114
Passages
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  #22   IP: 207.200.116.139
Old 04-14-2008, 03:36 AM
Jlmatt Jlmatt is offline
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Hello everyone. my goal ultimately is to go blue water ocean crossing at some point. And when I sit here, trying to imagine the worst and how I would handle it, I have to say that if I were to go through the kind of storm where the boat is like in a washing machine, I would worry about gasoline leaking. Should I go with diesel then? What a pain, and expensive. I think I'm leaning toward keeping the A4 because I think I'm able to work on it with my limited mechanical knowledge. If I inspect everything, all the hoses and tubings, connectors and clamps regularly and if I try to stay very aware that gasoline is indeed extremely flamable,I think I can keep it safe. I would rather spend the money on sails and rigging.

Jean-Luc, Pearson Triton.
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Old 07-09-2008, 09:55 AM
Concord Concord is offline
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I have had both

My last boat had a Yanmar 1GM10 and my current boat has an Atomic 4.

My recomendation is to make sure you understand whatever engine you decide on. I had a problem with my 1GM10 and called the local Yanmar mechanic and he tried to start the engine with ether and did more damage than good. I was fortunate to find the best Diesel Mechanic around (aka The Diesel Doctor) to help me get the engine back in shape. It turned out that the original problem was fuel related and the ether ended up cracking the piston. The repair ended up being around $600 but the engine was small (1 piston) and the DD cut me a break because I pulled the engine and brought it to him (not an easy task while at anchor). Through the process I ended up learning more about diesel engines than I ever wanted to know.

So far I am very happy with the atomic 4, diagnosis and repair seems to be easier than on the diesel. There is also more support around for trouble shooting the A4 than the diesel. Don (The Atomic Doctor) is a great resource and can provide the support to keep you going.

The marine environment is tough on fuel especially in a sailboat where the fuel lasts a long time. Gas or Diesel you need to make sure you take care of your fuel. If you don't burn a full tank over a season then it would be wise to drain the fuel and start fresh.

Good luck
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Old 07-09-2008, 10:33 AM
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I'll throw in my two cents even though its an old post, it still gets read alot.
Gas engines are easier for the average person to learn to work on, though diesel engines aren't that much harder. If you're travelling long distances, whatever is in your boat, you better know it well because sooner or later you're gonna be fixing it yourself. The advantage of these Atomic 4's is the support available, as odd as it sounds for such an old, out of production engine. There have been so many things learned over the years, and so many kits available to improve weak points, that there is nothing you have to do that hasn't been done before and is probably written up somewhere on this very site.

I read about people thinking of repowering because their 10 year old diesel is not running well, and I wonder that my roughly 40 year old engine is still running well. It seems for reliability sake, get a cast-iron engine, be it either gas or diesel. Aluminum ones don't tolerate abuse like the iron ones do.
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Old 07-11-2008, 05:59 AM
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CowboyPhD CowboyPhD is offline
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Hey hd78half-

Do you have that list of parts you bought to rebuild? I'm tearing down an old A4 in my shop and preparing to rebuild. I could use some advice. What machining services did you have done? What were you able to do yourself? What would you have done differently? Etc.?

Thanks.
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