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  #51   IP: 65.190.137.174
Old 11-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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Indigo FWC w/ electric pump and TCV

I'm about 90% complete on the installation of the Indigo system with the electric pump and Temperature Control Valve. Like others I just didn't like crowding the space at the accessory drive. Locating the heat exchanger in the lazerette is less than perfect, but it is easy to adjust the temperature. I've used more elbows than recomended to keep the lazerette neat. As part of this project I replaced the original raw water pump with the Moyer and also upgraded to the 1/2" belt pulley for the Balmar alternator.
The TCV system eliminates the thermostat and the by-pass hose. The instructions call for carefully flushing block.
My question comes now. Inside the thermostat housing has a black build-up that looks like soot. Its not oily. There's no rust scale. My first thought ran to a blown head gasket at an exhaust valve. My second thought is silt from being in fresh and brackish water for most of the AnnaDor's life. The three spring thermostat was completely blackened, but still operated. Should I be concerned?
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Old 11-29-2010, 09:10 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Old antifreeze looks like dirty black motor. May be what you are seeing.
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  #53   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 11-29-2010, 09:12 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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The 3 spring thermostat is a Holley, the most valued and rare atomic 4
thermostat definitely a keeper. They are highly priced by Don Moyer.
You can easily clean it up by placing in a cup of vinegar for a day or 2.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:01 AM
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Quote:
They are highly priced by Don Moyer.
Hi, Art:

I think you mean "highly prized," although if he could get them, they would certainly be "highly priced."

Bill
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:04 AM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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ArtJ,
thanks for the responses. This engine has never had anti-freeze yet. The thrmostat won't be going back in if the TCV works. The two main reasons for my converting are 1) this engine is in good condition and 2) the temperature climbs and drops 140*....200*..140*. The temp guage is exhausted and I admit to anxiety on cool nights when seeing steam illuminated by the stern light.
Michael
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  #56   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 11-29-2010, 11:08 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
Hi, Art:

I think you mean "highly prized," although if he could get them, they would certainly be "highly priced."

Bill
I did mean highly prized. Wow what a difference a typo makes !
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  #57   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 11-29-2010, 11:24 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Michael Edwards - Just a suggestion: since you will be using antifreeze for the first time and the block has been raw water cooled forever, it is probable a lot of crud has accumulated in the bottom of the block jacket. First prize would be to remove the side plate for a complete clean out. Failing that try putting a (temporary) cheap,say Jabsco, filter in line just before your new electric antifreeze pump. What collects in the plastic bowl will tell the tale. Hanley
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:01 PM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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Hanley,
I guess I haven't been trying for first prize. If I don't physically remove the crud I'll risk clogging the new stuff; right? Is it too opptomistic acid flush without removing the starter, alternator and sideplate?
I like the filter plan. Did you mean 'water strainer' when you said filter?
Michael
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:31 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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The acid flush is a huge step and will do a lot of good. Sorry, yes, I did mean "strainer".
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:45 PM
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To do a proper FWC install and avoid headaches later, you really should remove the water jacket side plate and clean out the block as well as you can. My A4 was raw water cooled for 33 years prior to me upgrading to FWC, but was frequently flushed with vinegar and acid (at different intervals). I found black crud and metal flakes in the block upon taking the side plate off. I dug around in there with my fingers and grabbed as much stuff as I could. I also used a small extendable magnet to grab rust flakes out of the block in areas I couldn't reach with my fingers. It is not the most fun you will ever have, but not a terrible job either. If you don't do it now, you will wish you did later. Now that I put the prep work in prior to my FWC install, I have had no problems maintaining a consistent engine temp - no fluctuations at operating temp like I was experiencing before. FWC really helps the engine maintain a consistent operating temp.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:04 PM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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Kurt,
thank you for persuading me to do this project right the first time! All that I found in the thermostat housing was black crud (no rust scale). Being black had me concerned. I'll also put a temporary strainer in-line.
Regards,
Michael
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:20 PM
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As long as you are going to flush, I strongly recommend the acid flush
with diluted muriatic acid (available at home centers). Following Don
Moyer"s flushing procedure in doing this will ensure that the block is cleaned thoroughly. MMI sells a inexpensive flushing kit with instructions which
includes all the hard to find fittings necessary to do this job.

Regards

Art
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  #63   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 11-29-2010, 03:32 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Before proceeding with removal of the water jacket side plate read some of the threads on the subject. I like Jerry's "water jacket side plate adventure". see member "roadnsky".

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 11-29-2010 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 11-29-2010, 10:46 PM
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I strongly recommend removing the side plate to dig out the crud in there. You'll never be able to flush some of those chunks out through the drain holes. I was amazed at how much came out when I did it.

A small magnet works great for getting some of the pieces out of the corners. I also blasted with a garden hose for a while to really stir things up in there.
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Old 11-30-2010, 05:24 AM
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I also recommend considering removing that side plate and, as Hanley advises, review the several great side plate threads on this forum before starting. Be well prepared before turning the first bolt, but I think it is an important step in restoring the cooling function of an old A4 with uncertain maintenance history.

While you've got the alternator and starter off, consider getting them serviced too.
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  #66   IP: 142.68.241.94
Old 11-30-2010, 05:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Edwards View Post
Being black had me concerned.
I found non-oily black crud first time I opened up the thermostat housing on the then new-to-us A4, but accumulation of that stuff seems to be a natural state in old A4s that have not had full coolant chamber maintenance, judging by the numerous threads discussing it. Some think it is bacterial breakdown of carbonaceous material in a raw water-cooled engine, which kinda maybe makes sense to me (seawater and lakewater are protein soups), although I would have thought the heat would kill bacteria. In any case, I have never found a thread giving evidence that ordinary black crud indicates a problem in an A4 other than need for cleaning and flushing.
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Old 12-01-2010, 01:18 PM
Michael Edwards Michael Edwards is offline
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Members,
thank you all for all of the direction and advise. I have read the articles and experiences that you cited. Now I need to get the gasket & repair bolts. The scratches on my forearms are healing as are the busted knuckles; so its time to crawl back in there. I already have the acid.
I'll give an update in a week or so. I have to finish building a new companionway hatch before returning to the creek.
Michael
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  #68   IP: 98.89.146.247
Old 12-05-2010, 10:35 PM
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JonnyQuest JonnyQuest is offline
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water jacket cleanout before or after acid flush?

Although I guess it just doubled this project for me, it appears to be preventative measures worth the trouble.

Question: clean out the water jacket before performing any acid/pressure flush or after?
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Old 12-06-2010, 06:21 PM
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I'd guess do the acid flush before. Gives any chunks of stuff a chance to fall off, then you can scrape, pick, or blast it out.

Both my drain holes were completely clogged with a fine black sediment which I think is Chesapeake mud that is suspended in the raw water, then settles in the engine block where it solidified over time.

I used an awl, various screwdrivers, and a judiciously pointed garden hose blasting that crud out. Not to mention large metalic rusty flakes that had flaked off the inner surfaces. Don't worry when you see these. I think is it normal and there's usually plenty of metal left. It is these larger flakes and the mud sediment that the acid flush can't break down, nor can they pass through the small drain holes, so the only option is to open the access plate and scrape it out!

Good luck!
-Micah
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Old 12-06-2010, 09:15 PM
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clean first

I would de-scale and muck out first.

That way the acid is working on your engine and not wasted.
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  #71   IP: 98.89.146.247
Old 12-09-2010, 11:11 PM
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JonnyQuest JonnyQuest is offline
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Both responses!

I'm gonna guess that it would be a50/50 split on opinions of which to do first. I'll probably go with the acid flush first since I want to get a bit more ownership time in before I start unbolting things off a (seemingly) perfectly fine engine-- not wanting to tempt the fates here.

Plus it's cold right now and I don't really want to fiddle in an engine compartment all weekend long freezing my keester off!

Thanks for the input and Happy RamaHanuKwanzmas to everyone.
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Last edited by JonnyQuest; 12-09-2010 at 11:12 PM. Reason: typpo's (again!)
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  #72   IP: 71.234.134.212
Old 02-08-2011, 11:55 AM
CapeCodPiper CapeCodPiper is offline
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Red face Locating the FWC system fill tank

I have a Tartan 27 with a Type I A-4 (with an Iron pipe crossover and single Dole thermostat which actually one could live without if one doesn't mind running cooler water through the engine for a little longer than originally designed). The December Pin-up shows how the A-4 is located in the T-27, although that A-4 does not have fresh water cooling.

On the T-27 the A-4 sits under a cowling which also serves as the lower steps for the companionway. The good news is that when one removes the cowling the access to the engine is good. The bad news is that since the engine is actually away from any substantial fixed bulkhead (the panelling behind the engine is fine for electrical connections, but nothing substantial), there is no good place very close to the engine, with good overhead access to get to the fill cap, to locate a single unit FWC system.

I opted to go for a two part Sendure system with a MMI flywheel mounted water pump. The horizontal heat exchanger is now happily mounted buried under the cockpit close to the hull inflow seacock. I wanted to locate the overflow tank more centrally and prominently, so that I could easily access the "radiator cap". The tank I have is a cylinder tank about 10" long with two tabs underneath for mounting on some kind of rail.

I decided to mount the tank directly onto the engine, effectively on the exhaust manifold. I found a piece of aluminum (maybe an old cookie sheet) about 5" x 10". I drilled two holes to line up with the two outer Exhaust manifold mounting studs, and notched the aluminum plate to fit around the middle stud (with the air intake flanging it would be hard for the plate to fit flush to the manifold anyways.) I also notched the top of the plate so that the lower piping on the tank could fit, and drilled the plate to properly bolt to the tank tabs. Thus the plate was bolted to the manifold studs along with the manifold, and the tank bolted to rest on top of the plate.

The mount is wonderful except that the 2 mm plate is a bit flimsy. Tank stays where it is, but when horsing the cap on and off the tank can flop around a bit. To fix this, I drilled the plate for two 4" bolts on which I nutted oversized washers. The washers fit between the engine and manifold, providing a kind of hooking brace for the plate. Made it more stable. Worked great for number of years.

Last summer I found that ice had compromised the exhaust outflow seal on exhaust manifold. (Why an almost new 1967 A-4 should need a new exhaust manifold after only 44 years is hard to believe!) So off came the FWC tank and manifold, to be replaced by a new MMI manifold. The MMI is very nice indeed (good design and production work, Don et al!) but it does seem to require a tiny bit more stud to bolt on than the older casting (which probably has some hollowing at the stud holes). I WAS able to get the plate and stud nuts back on, but only with about 3-4 threads (3/4 of the nut) to hold everything on. This season I didn't bother to put the 4"ers back on, as that system did not seem too good.

I'd like to upgrade the mounting. I wonder with any Afourians have any ideas to help me. I would prefer to use a more robust SSteel plate rather than the flimsier aluminium plate, but I'm not sure how much more thickness the exhaust manifold studs can take. I probably could replace the Manifold studs with longer studs. But clearly we have more engine block studs (at least 4 on each side) which also seem a bit longer relative to the nuts than the 3 exhaust man. studs, so asking them to help out could be sensible. Maybe two angle irons stealing space from two engine block studs and then wrapping around the top of the exhaust manifold, bolted to a 10"x 2" piece of SS stock on the top of the side of the manifold to which the tank would be bolted, would be better. As the main force exerted is down on the cap to close and open it (pushing against the spring), the connected double "L" mounting bracket design might give enough strength. But adding thin strapping down to at least one Exhaust studs would not be hard, and would lock everything in nicely.

Any ideas here? Certainly designing a way to attach the coolant tank directly to the A-4 could be very helpful for Afourians with free-standing A-4s.
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Old 02-08-2011, 02:00 PM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapeCodPiper View Post
I have a Tartan 27 with a Type I A-4 (with an Iron pipe crossover and single Dole thermostat which actually one could live without if one doesn't mind running cooler water through the engine for a little longer than originally designed). The December Pin-up shows how the A-4 is located in the T-27, although that A-4 does not have fresh water cooling.

On the T-27 the A-4 sits under a cowling which also serves as the lower steps for the companionway. The good news is that when one removes the cowling the access to the engine is good. The bad news is that since the engine is actually away from any substantial fixed bulkhead (the panelling behind the engine is fine for electrical connections, but nothing substantial), there is no good place very close to the engine, with good overhead access to get to the fill cap, to locate a single unit FWC system.

I opted to go for a two part Sendure system with a MMI flywheel mounted water pump. The horizontal heat exchanger is now happily mounted buried under the cockpit close to the hull inflow seacock. I wanted to locate the overflow tank more centrally and prominently, so that I could easily access the "radiator cap". The tank I have is a cylinder tank about 10" long with two tabs underneath for mounting on some kind of rail.

I decided to mount the tank directly onto the engine, effectively on the exhaust manifold. I found a piece of aluminum (maybe an old cookie sheet) about 5" x 10". I drilled two holes to line up with the two outer Exhaust manifold mounting studs, and notched the aluminum plate to fit around the middle stud (with the air intake flanging it would be hard for the plate to fit flush to the manifold anyways.) I also notched the top of the plate so that the lower piping on the tank could fit, and drilled the plate to properly bolt to the tank tabs. Thus the plate was bolted to the manifold studs along with the manifold, and the tank bolted to rest on top of the plate.

The mount is wonderful except that the 2 mm plate is a bit flimsy. Tank stays where it is, but when horsing the cap on and off the tank can flop around a bit. To fix this, I drilled the plate for two 4" bolts on which I nutted oversized washers. The washers fit between the engine and manifold, providing a kind of hooking brace for the plate. Made it more stable. Worked great for number of years.

Last summer I found that ice had compromised the exhaust outflow seal on exhaust manifold. (Why an almost new 1967 A-4 should need a new exhaust manifold after only 44 years is hard to believe!) So off came the FWC tank and manifold, to be replaced by a new MMI manifold. The MMI is very nice indeed (good design and production work, Don et al!) but it does seem to require a tiny bit more stud to bolt on than the older casting (which probably has some hollowing at the stud holes). I WAS able to get the plate and stud nuts back on, but only with about 3-4 threads (3/4 of the nut) to hold everything on. This season I didn't bother to put the 4"ers back on, as that system did not seem too good.

I'd like to upgrade the mounting. I wonder with any Afourians have any ideas to help me. I would prefer to use a more robust SSteel plate rather than the flimsier aluminium plate, but I'm not sure how much more thickness the exhaust manifold studs can take. I probably could replace the Manifold studs with longer studs. But clearly we have more engine block studs (at least 4 on each side) which also seem a bit longer relative to the nuts than the 3 exhaust man. studs, so asking them to help out could be sensible. Maybe two angle irons stealing space from two engine block studs and then wrapping around the top of the exhaust manifold, bolted to a 10"x 2" piece of SS stock on the top of the side of the manifold to which the tank would be bolted, would be better. As the main force exerted is down on the cap to close and open it (pushing against the spring), the connected double "L" mounting bracket design might give enough strength. But adding thin strapping down to at least one Exhaust studs would not be hard, and would lock everything in nicely.

Any ideas here? Certainly designing a way to attach the coolant tank directly to the A-4 could be very helpful for Afourians with free-standing A-4s.
I am not sure, but I think you would like to attach the fresh water cooling
tank to the exhaust manifold. The original Universal freshwater cooling exchanger
did attach horizontally to two of the bolts holding the manifold in place.

I have one for my atomic 4 which has worked fine.
Check out the universal parts manual for a picture of one. I do not think
they are currently available anymore.

Regards
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:44 PM
CapeCodPiper CapeCodPiper is offline
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Smile

Hi ArtJ

Thanks for the feedback on your experience mounting a FWC system on the engine.

I cannot lay my hand on my old Universal Catalogue, but I seem to remember in it a drawing of a FWC system very much like the Moyer system of a vertical heat exchanger with a small fill tank at the top: overall an upside down "L".
I can understand with a simple clamp bracket around the vertical part hanging on two of the manifold studs, the FWC could be hung on the manifold. This must be what you have.

This leads me to believe that I should stay with a some kind of bracket plate for the water tank hanging on the exhaust manifold studs. The studs have no trouble with the weight, etc of the quart or so of coolant in an aluminium cylinder. If I'm concerned that my plate is a bit flimsy as it needs to be thin enough to fit happily on the studs, I can always either replace/beef up the plate or add some kind of bracing to the plate. Probably with something like some "L" brackets or drilled strips from an aluminum ruler which I can get from the local hardware store, I can work up an easy and robust solution, probably without bothering more than one of the engine head studs.

When I get the new system fixed up I'll send along a photo for the archives to help others.

Thanks again,

David
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Old 02-10-2011, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CapeCodPiper View Post
...I cannot lay my hand on my old Universal Catalogue, but I seem to remember in it a drawing of a FWC system very much like the Moyer system of a vertical heat exchanger with a small fill tank at the top: overall an upside down "L".
David-
Is this the Universal Manual you're talking about?
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