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  #26   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 11-24-2010, 10:01 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is offline
 
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In addition to the safety wire, I have installed a spare shaft zinc on the
shaft for additional protection against the shaft spinning out.
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  #27   IP: 216.81.94.73
Old 11-24-2010, 11:35 AM
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What's the safety wire?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
JQ,

I think you need a safety wire on that square locking nut on the shaft coupler. If that ever backed out, the shaft could slide out of the boat in reverse.

Don't forget to wear a mask when you unwrap that stuff since we don't know what it is.
Good idea, I'll def get a mask when I tackle the wrap.

I'm a new owner with plenty of wet behind my ears, and don't know what you are referring to regarding a safety wire on the shaft coupling. Could you elaborate on what it is, where to get it, maybe a pic from someone?

Not knocking the previous owner, but there are a lot of issues that I need to learn and take care of on this boat to bring it back up to speed-- it sails and the engine runs, but I can see that there's a lot of deferred maintenance going on here.

But then it wouldn't be a sailboat if there wasn't an endless to-do list, would it?
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Old 11-24-2010, 11:41 AM
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JQ, here ya go. I edited your earlier pic with some instructions. I am also posting a pic of my old coupler which still shows the safety wire in place..the locking nut is not visible.
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Old 11-24-2010, 12:14 PM
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Thanks for the pictures--that cleared things up for me perfectly!

Scratch one easy thing off the to-do list.
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  #30   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 11-24-2010, 03:01 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Hanley,

I'm fascinated with your thru-hull mounted pump and have more questions.

As I recall, you have a waterlift exhaust system, my question does not apply to a standpipe. One of the charms of the conventional engine driven impeller pump is it pumps an amount of water proportionate to the engine RPM and accordingly the exhaust has to lift an amount of water proportionate to exhaust volume and pressure.

So, my question is: with your electric raw water pump operating at full volume at all times, even at idle, have you ever experienced an issue or had a concern with the exhaust's ability to handle the flow?

I seem to remember Thatch's electric pump FWC system design used the electric pump (not thru-hull mounted) to circulate the FW side of the system partly for this reason.

Other questions:

Is there a debris problem in your area? Here in SoCal we deal with kelp. There are floating kelp patties (fish hotels) all over the place, even mid channel to Catalina. I've reverted to a non-strainer thru-hull and a raw water strainer to deal with it. If the thru-hull gets clogged I can pull the hose and rod it out. Otherwise, I count on the strainer to handle anything that's sucked up. Have you had any thru-hull/pump clogging issues and if so, how did you resolve it?

Do you have a raw water strainer? My understanding is the seals on raw water strainers are designed for negative pressure whereas a strainer in an application such as yours would be in a positive pressure situation. Maybe the pressure is so small that it's not a problem.

As you can tell, I'm interested in your experience. Right now I'm flushing my RWC engine after each use but I'd like to add FWC someday. The Catalina 30, for reasons mentioned previously, has some real space problems when it comes to FWC so these electric pump installations, like yours and Thatch's, get my attention.
Neil - The pump does indeed run at full force all the time but because of the circuitness nature of a raw water side of an exchanger, and the fact that I have four of them, the pump never achieves it's rated output. So far I have not had any problems with too much water at idle. I have, however, installed a diverter system from the output end of the raw side which selects between exhaust system and direct overboard. This was done to conserve horsepower and not make the exhaust gases do unnecessary work. My pump never achieves anything near the pressure of a mechanical pump. The system is predicated on low raw water pressure moving thru multiple exchangers to extract the heat. The system also relies on rapid change out capability because in reality this is a baitwell pump prone to sudden failure. I keep spares handy and pre-wired; I have changed one in less than a minute. The good news is that they are cheap. We do not have the debris problem that plagues the west coast so I have only an ouside hull strainer. See my Engine album. Hanley
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  #31   IP: 74.243.33.42
Old 11-24-2010, 10:58 PM
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Got some new photos of engine compartment

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
JQ - The bulkhead in front of the engine appears to preclude the crank mounted pump unless you are able to modify it. The rather large alternator isn't going to be happy sharing a belt. You may be a good candidate for an electric pump, either bulkhead or thru hull mounted. The good news is that you appear to have a space for a vertical exchanger. Let's see a few more pictures. Attached is picture of my salt water pump. Hanley
Got back to the boat today and shot more pics of the engine compartment to assess the feasibility of MMI belt driven FWC system or Indigo's electric pump FWC system. I shot a ton of pics so I will only post a link to them here. I'm thinking the electric pump system may be looking more appropriate here.

Link: http://gallery.me.com/thomasbaileyjr#100139

What do ya'll think?

Thanks again, JQ.
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Old 11-25-2010, 12:19 AM
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JQ,

Please forgive me if I assume skills not in evidence but it seems to me the engine box could be extended forward a few inches quite easily. I believe the actual carpentry would take maybe a couple of hours. It would afford you all the room you would need at the flywheel end of the engine for an additional pump (required for FWC).
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Old 11-25-2010, 04:00 AM
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FWC electrical pump

Here's a photo of a quick installation of an electrical pump in the fresh water side of a FWC circuit. It is located in a cockpit locker about 2-3 feet from the manifold at about the same height as the engine. One of the blue hoses runs to the header tank which is installed just on the other side of the locker box (plywood walls). I chose the Johnston pump used by Indigo in their FWC kit.

I have not run sea trials but am satisfied with dock trials thus far. The pump is currently wired through a dedicated circuit breaker on the main electrical panel before I eventually install it with current coming from the ignition circuit. For now, I have to manually flip on the switch to power the pump. I also continue to chase and replace smaller circuit plumbing fixtures in order to minimize overall resistance to flow.
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Old 11-25-2010, 09:03 AM
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JQ - Kelly has posted a nice picture of the bulkhead option for the antifreeze loop. You certainly have the room for it. I agree with Neil's comment about extending the panel in front of the engine forward. Then you could run your mechanical salt water pump right off the crank. At the risk of emptying the barracks I would suggest that two mechanical pumps are usually the best arrangement if you can fit them into the space and don't mind the additional cost (which is considerable). Hanley
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  #35   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 11-25-2010, 09:26 AM
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Kelly and others,

When installing an electric pump on the ignition circuit (totally logical) please consider the added amperage on the circuit. This could involve replacing the ignition wiring to a larger gauge wire and perhaps a higher rated ignition switch, fuse or breaker, etc.

Of course, size matters but motors can be a significant draw, especially at 12V.

In the electrical industry it's a code requirement that circuits are designed to carry a maximum of 80% of their rated capacity in amperage. So, if you have a circuit comprised of 20 amp components (12 gauge wire, 20 amp breaker) the maximum allowable design load on that circuit is 16 amps. It's a policy that results in a trouble free system.
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  #36   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 11-25-2010, 10:36 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Neil's comments about loads in ignition circuits call into question the continued use of standard keyed ignition switches. I have always been suspicious of them and most recently have done away with them on my boat. Also, a #14 wire just ain't gonna git it anymore what with the addition of electric fuel and water pumps. I have resorted to the equivalent of a #10 wire thru a bat handled switch to oil pressure switches, which I now carry as spares much like a fuse backup. A separate momentary button handles the starting circuit.
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Old 11-25-2010, 10:48 AM
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Hanley mentions a component I hadn't considered and learning more about his system on this thread I should have remembered.

In his case - and perhaps others - most everything engine related goes through an oil pressure safety switch. The rated amperage of the switch is a factor too.

Since I don't think there's much choice regarding the amperage of oil pressure switches, if there's a need, a N.O. relay of sufficient ampacity is a solution.
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Last edited by ndutton; 11-25-2010 at 11:03 AM. Reason: changed 1 word
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:08 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Some numbers for oil pressure switches. NAPA # OP 6624, also 6620 and 6626. I have been carrying both fuel and water pumps as well as instruments and ignition on one of the above but after reading Neil's comment above I'm going to calculate the loads. Either a relay or multiple switches on the "oil pressure distribution block" may be in order.
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
JQ,

Please forgive me if I assume skills not in evidence but it seems to me the engine box could be extended forward a few inches quite easily. I believe the actual carpentry would take maybe a couple of hours. It would afford you all the room you would need at the flywheel end of the engine for an additional pump (required for FWC).
In theory, yes. But The Admiral flipped out when I consumed some of that space already when upgrading the battery system--doubled the size of the bottom step which pushed into her domain--the salon/galley/stateroom/guest quarters/basement/attic/etc...

I'm going to have to make do inside the existing confines of the engine compartment.

(Besides, I suck as a carpenter)
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
Here's a photo of a quick installation of an electrical pump in the fresh water side of a FWC circuit. It is located in a cockpit locker about 2-3 feet from the manifold at about the same height as the engine. One of the blue hoses runs to the header tank which is installed just on the other side of the locker box (plywood walls). I chose the Johnston pump used by Indigo in their FWC kit.

I have not run sea trials but am satisfied with dock trials thus far. The pump is currently wired through a dedicated circuit breaker on the main electrical panel before I eventually install it with current coming from the ignition circuit. For now, I have to manually flip on the switch to power the pump. I also continue to chase and replace smaller circuit plumbing fixtures in order to minimize overall resistance to flow.
Thanks for the photo here. is the pump oriented horizontally? I was assuming that it had to be vertical, but i am learning to never make assumptions.

The increased electrical load is a consideration, and I have a friend that is good with electrical who I can solicit to help me on-site. I do have a push-button starter switch, but need to check the wire gauge again--probably needs to be upgraded along with fusing.

how big is the header tank (got a photo?) and can it be placed in the locker box as well? What are the installation limitation for this? (if any)

Thanks again and Happy Thanksgiving to you all.
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  #41   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 11-25-2010, 11:42 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Ain't nobody happy unless...

That being the case you should focus on the electric options. If you choose the Indigo pump they want you to use it for the antifreeze side. If you choose the thru hull mounted baitwell pump like mine you can use your engine pump for the antifreeze. Either way you need exchanger and header tank. With your layout I recommend the combination from Moyer Marine or Indigo. I also recommend you eliminate as many angle fittings as possible. The electric pump should be on an oil pressure switch. You may be able to incorporate some features from my Engine album.
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Old 11-25-2010, 11:54 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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A header tank is nothing more than a pressurized reservoir with a cap for adding antifreeze. The hose from the neck under the cap goes to the overflow tank which also feeds the system as needed. Here is a picture of mine, but is probably not right for you. It seems you would do better with the exchanger/header tank unit.

Last edited by hanleyclifford; 07-13-2016 at 08:36 PM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyQuest View Post
In theory, yes. But The Admiral flipped out when I consumed some of that space already when upgrading the battery system--doubled the size of the bottom step which pushed into her domain--the salon/galley/stateroom/guest quarters/basement/attic/etc...

I'm going to have to make do inside the existing confines of the engine compartment.

(Besides, I suck as a carpenter)
Two valid reasons and you have my admiration for listing them in the proper order.

Regarding a header tank, you may not need one other than the HX itself. The purpose of a separate header tank is to provide a fill point for the antifreeze that is at the highest point of the FWC system. Most heat exchangers - and ALL the HX's I've seen for the A4 - have an integral pressurized fill cap. The 2 instances I can think of where a separate, higher fill point is needed is when a water heater is installed and the hoses to and from are routed higher at some point than the HX, and the case where there's insufficient space above the HX to conveniently pour antifreeze into it. If neither of those situations apply there's no need for a separate header tank.
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Old 11-26-2010, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Thanks for the photo here. is the pump oriented horizontally? I was assuming that it had to be vertical, but i am learning to never make assumptions.

The increased electrical load is a consideration, and I have a friend that is good with electrical who I can solicit to help me on-site. I do have a push-button starter switch, but need to check the wire gauge again--probably needs to be upgraded along with fusing.

how big is the header tank (got a photo?) and can it be placed in the locker box as well? What are the installation limitation for this? (if any)
You're welcome for the photo. I'm a huge fan of illustrating the descriptions!

The pump is oriented horizontally in accordance with the included instructions that you can find here. The manufacturer allows for both horizontal and vertical installation with a preference for upward-directed output flow.

I do not have a photo of my header tank but it resembles the one in Hanley's recent photo. The header tank would need to be the highest point in the circuit for obvious overflow considerations. And as a basic electrical, plumbing, sailing and life philosophy, I always try to keep the distances between fixed points to a minimum. Right-angles in the plumbing are to be avoided as well.

P.S. Neil: Ampacity?! Really?
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Last edited by Kelly; 11-26-2010 at 02:27 AM.
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Old 11-26-2010, 08:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
Neil: Ampacity?! Really?
Yeah Kelly, get me talkin 'tricity and I get in the zone. Guess I'm a product of my industry.
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Old 11-26-2010, 09:02 AM
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current carrying capacity

Excellent! I couldn't find it on dictionary.com but wikipedia came to the rescue.
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Old 11-28-2010, 08:30 PM
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Just installed mine and it is powered off the ignition circuit instead of the oil pressure switch. The pump spins when the key is turned, but so what? Is there a danger in that?
Thanks,
Micah
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:17 PM
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Micah,

Assuming the electric pump is in the antifreeze loop as per Indigo instructions, no problem. Further, I read that the pump draws 1.2 amps @ 12 volts which should not significantly tax the existing electrical components.

Nice looking install.
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Old 11-28-2010, 09:41 PM
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Do keep in mind, however, that during cranking the voltage will be somewhat lower, and the amperage higher. I would give this one a little more thought.
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Old 11-29-2010, 07:24 AM
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I installed the Moyer FWC system into my 1978 Catalina 30. Needed to relocate my batteries to the cabinet under the navigation station. This was required to gain space to fit the heat exchanger and expansion tank into the engine compartment. Also needed to cut a 4 inch square access hole into the engine compartment, on the bow end. Needed this to have access to bolt down the pulley for the new pump. Installed a salvaged mahogany door to cover this. I posted some pix in an earlier post here. Let me know if you are not able to find this. Take care, Russ
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