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  #26   IP: 24.222.41.185
Old 10-29-2017, 08:33 AM
joseph miller joseph miller is offline
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hello,

i have just about finished a 4 year rebuild on a Grampian 30.
it had what looked like an identical fuel tank. Canadian made about the same era.

i threw it in the dumpster and went with a new Moeller tank and all new fuel fill and carb hoses.


one thing brought up during insurance survey was that the tank should be grounded from fill indicator to engine. i used plastic deck fill so i supose the only way to ground that would be with the SS hose clamp.

Joe
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  #27   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 10-29-2017, 08:55 AM
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A couple of reactions Joe,
  • Standards agencies tend to hang onto old requirements long after new and improved technologies are developed, particularly in the area of grounding. The redundancy of ELCI and AC/DC bond requirements is an example.
  • Your idea of grounding the clamp at the fill plate is probably the best you can do. Plastics can hold a static charge pretty well.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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  #28   IP: 72.194.223.97
Old 10-29-2017, 10:15 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Once a year I use an ohm meter to be sure the tank is electricity connected to ground.

TRUE GRIT
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  #29   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 10-29-2017, 11:03 AM
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Russ's information about cross linked poly tanks being permeable was new information to me. I always figured I'd go poly if my aluminum tanks ever developed leaks but pending further research, tank permeability on my gasoline powered boat is a deal breaker.

Time for some research and testing
This news reinforces the importance of keeping water out of metallic fuel tanks, even stainless that undergoes metallurgic changes at the welds. Avoidance of corrosion driven pinhole leaks will prolong the life of metallic tanks indefinitely. Despite our best efforts water often finds its way in so how can we mitigate that easily and efficiently? I'm brainstorming a periodic pure ethanol rinse. The knock on ethanol is that it combines and holds water, why not take advantage of that property? Pump out all the gas possible, pour in a gallon of pure ethanol and then pump that out. Whatever water may have been in the tank will be removed with the ethanol and I believe whatever residual ethanol remains would be insignificant and certainly a better residue for the tank than water.

It looks like pure ethanol is available at roughly $20/gallon but if it's shown to be effective it's seems like chump change compared to tank replacement.
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  #30   IP: 50.101.241.60
Old 10-29-2017, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joseph miller View Post
hello,

one thing brought up during insurance survey was that the tank should be grounded from fill indicator to engine. i used plastic deck fill so i supose the only way to ground that would be with the SS hose clamp.

Joe
Congrats in The rebuild!

I have a "plastic" deck fill as well and will be grounding via the deck mounting bolts and a properly crimped ring connector. The regs mention not to ground by sticking the wire between the hose and the fill for a compression connection. I feel the hose clamps would be the same thing.
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  #31   IP: 98.165.208.30
Old 10-29-2017, 10:34 PM
zellerj zellerj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
Russ's information about cross linked poly tanks being permeable was new information to me. I always figured I'd go poly if my aluminum tanks ever developed leaks but pending further research, tank permeability on my gasoline powered boat is a deal breaker.

Time for some research and testing
This news reinforces the importance of keeping water out of metallic fuel tanks, even stainless that undergoes metallurgic changes at the welds. Avoidance of corrosion driven pinhole leaks will prolong the life of metallic tanks indefinitely. Despite our best efforts water often finds its way in so how can we mitigate that easily and efficiently? I'm brainstorming a periodic pure ethanol rinse. The knock on ethanol is that it combines and holds water, why not take advantage of that property? Pump out all the gas possible, pour in a gallon of pure ethanol and then pump that out. Whatever water may have been in the tank will be removed with the ethanol and I believe whatever residual ethanol remains would be insignificant and certainly a better residue for the tank than water.

It looks like pure ethanol is available at roughly $20/gallon but if it's shown to be effective it's seems like chump change compared to tank replacement.
When my aluminum tank (Catalina 30) developed pin holes and leaked, I had a local fabricator put a new aluminum bottom on my tank, that ran up the sides a few inches. the old tank bottom was not removed. Cost me about $80. Should be be good for another 30 years. But Neil, you are absolutely right - without water, I would not have had pin holes in the first place.

An ethanol rinse is a good thought, however acetone would be similar to ethanol at removing water, but would be better at removing organic junk (tars, etc) and cleaning the tank. The solubilizing ability of acetone is pretty amazing. Blowing air through your tank for a while would remove all of the acetone, but probably not necessary to remove it all before adding gas.
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  #32   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 10-30-2017, 08:55 AM
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New tank arrives today but have to wait until this 48hrs of rain you East Coasters sent us to leave before I can get the tools out!
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  #33   IP: 174.192.8.39
Old 10-30-2017, 09:36 AM
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“48hrs of rain”....That’s just a down payment on the sleezy weather (no body to it) you inflict on us every winter.
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  #34   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 10-30-2017, 10:10 AM
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IMHO a very likely way for aluminum tanks to corrode is from the outside in. My tank sits on drydeck squares that sit on a starboard (plastic) shelf. The routine systems of a tank on a wood shelf will corrode the tank AND rot the wood. Not sure about inside, but temperature cycling around here in colder months leaves a lot of water collecting on the outside.
* probably the ONE benefit of our horrible alco-gas is that small amounts of water are just absorbed and burned and do not collect on the bottom.
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  #35   IP: 107.77.92.90
Old 10-30-2017, 11:50 AM
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Just to add to the story of my experience; It was a portable plastic tank that gave me gas odors in my Cat 22. Gas odors, not gas fumes.

The Moeller tank in my columbia has been great. No odors.
we must not throw out the baby on just my one story.

My boat is plastic and so is my tank. All good.
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  #36   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 10-30-2017, 12:40 PM
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Russ, I'm appreciative of what you uncovered in Moeller's literature. It's not your information that bothers me, it's the manufacturer's. I'm also glad those of us who have the Moeller tanks are not having permeability problems . . . but a gas tank that the manufacturer warns is naturally permeable? I don't think so.
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  #37   IP: 137.200.32.54
Old 10-30-2017, 04:17 PM
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PERMEATION

Permeation is a natural phenomenon of gasoline in a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank.
Permeation is the result of gasoline fumes escaping from the fuel tank, not the loss of liquid fuel.
Several precautions need to be addressed when using a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank:
• Fuel (gasoline) vapors settle to the lowest point in the compartment, therefore, a means for removing the fumes is required. See ABYC Standards Section H-2 for specifics.
• A covered boat will not allow these fumes to escape, so build up of these fumes is inevitable. Caution should be taken when a boats fuel tank contains fuel and is covered for an extended period of time. A boat cover should never cover the fuel tanks exterior vent fitting(s).
• Fuel vapors will migrate to any compartment open to the fuel tank. The smell of fuel vapors does not necessarily mean that there is a leak in the fuel tank, but a closer inspection should be performed.
• Fuel vapors may be absorbed by other objects located in compartments where fuel vapor may migrate. Following the above precautions, a cross-linked polyethylene fuel tank will provide years of service.


Hmmmm- I guess the same could be said of any kind of flexible hose too, but are we talking 3 molecules a year or 3000 a second
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  #38   IP: 172.58.27.4
Old 10-30-2017, 04:38 PM
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To me it’s not a matter of an acceptable level of permeation. I look at it much like a Vetus blow molded waterlift or that plastic Boater Bits raw water strainer I had.

Had, past tense.
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1977 Catalina 30
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
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Last edited by ndutton; 10-30-2017 at 08:01 PM.
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  #39   IP: 71.178.91.146
Old 10-30-2017, 10:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
To me it’s not a matter of an acceptable level of permeation. I look at it much like a Vetus blow molded waterlift or that plastic Boater Bits raw water strainer I had.

Had, past tense.
Oh boy, I have a Moeller tank, with the plastic Perko fill, a plastic Vetus muffler, and the Boaterbits plastic strainer. All of mine are holding together OK, but certainly there are risks with each..however, I've had no trouble with the Moeller tank which I installed in 2009. (or any of the other things, either.)
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  #40   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 10-31-2017, 08:55 AM
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Just got the new tank. Can't say I smell any gas fumes at all!
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  #41   IP: 71.178.91.146
Old 10-31-2017, 07:30 PM
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Greg, Will you be able to incorporate their integrated hold down clamps into your design ? ?
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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  #42   IP: 50.101.241.60
Old 10-31-2017, 08:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
Greg, Will you be able to incorporate their integrated hold down clamps into your design ? ?
Short answer is no.

On each end are two 1/4"-20 threaded inserts. The company told me they were just for bracket position adjustments and not designed as hold down positions. I don't know how strong they are but I would assume strong enough to prevent lateral movement. Not being a Moeller tank they don't have the moulded ledges for that brand's hold downs.

I will be building wooden corner blocks to prevent lateral movement and two 1" webbing rated at 1200 lbs each to strap it down. Under the tank will be three 3" wide rubber strips and between the strips the plywood will have holes drilled for any potential moisture to drain off.

That's where my thoughts are at the moment.

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The adjustment threads are the two dark spots on the lower left where a slotted angle bracket attaches. There are another two at the other end.

Last edited by GregH; 10-31-2017 at 08:23 PM.
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  #43   IP: 71.178.90.245
Old 10-31-2017, 10:16 PM
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Greg, I understand...that sounds Ok to me, but I am not a mech. engineer.. I glassed in PVC boards in the bow for my 25 gal. holding tank with straps over the top and it hasn't moved yet..
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
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  #44   IP: 192.186.122.174
Old 11-01-2017, 08:50 AM
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yep. Of course all the wood will be slathered in epoxy for sealing the lumber. If the weather cooperates this weekend, will get the table saw out and get it done!
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  #45   IP: 66.102.86.61
Old 11-18-2017, 08:10 PM
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Almost there. Platform and hold downs all built, just have to drill drain holes between the rubber strips and paint the wood. Hope weather holds over next few weekends to get it installed.

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  #46   IP: 208.104.48.79
Old 11-19-2017, 10:45 AM
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Greg, post #45, third picture - the 'L' bracket has 3 fender washers - on the rightmost one it appears as if the edge of the washer could wear against the tank as it 'works' underway.
Am I seeing it correctly, and does it perhaps need to be ground down for clearance ?


Rick
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  #47   IP: 66.102.86.61
Old 11-19-2017, 12:39 PM
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Rick

Just a trick of the angle, it has as much clearance as the others on the same block.

After I saw the pic I had to go double check for myself!

Last edited by GregH; 11-20-2017 at 09:02 AM. Reason: speeling
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  #48   IP: 66.102.86.61
Old 11-19-2017, 12:46 PM
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One thing I forgot to account for is new tank swelling. The one corner block will, I assume, have to be installed in slightly new spot after tank gets its first filling. I don't want to install until tank has expanded.

Anyone gave an idea how much theirs have swelled (literature says expect 3%) ? And how long it took to settle in?
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  #49   IP: 71.178.88.90
Old 11-19-2017, 09:27 PM
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Greg, that all looks great. I do wonder about corrosion of the metal parts of the straps. No real basis, just a wonder..maybe we can slather it with petro jelly or some anti sieze or something. On the other hand, maybe you want it to sieze up so it never gives way!
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  #50   IP: 107.77.97.15
Old 11-19-2017, 10:07 PM
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Looking good.
I would make the screws that hold the strap brackets through bolts with those nice big washers you have on the other side. Half-inch wood screws in old wet plywood can pull out in a big bump. Design for extra bad things to happen.

Winter projects going on here too. Be happy in your work,
Russ
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