Abrupt hard failures in electronic ignitions?

[jimesh]

I have been wary of putting an electronic ignition into my A4 because I had an electronic ignition module fail hard, abruptly, at 50 mph on the highway some years ago, without warning. I like that the fact that the points-based ignition fails gradually, never catastrophically like that electronic one. You get some warning. I don't want to be in some dangerous situation on the water, depending on the engine for safety, and have it fail abruptly, catastrophically (and you can count on the fact that when it's needed the most is likely to be the time it quits.)

So my question is what are the experiences and thoughts of others? Are hard, catastrophic failures a thing of the past for electronic ignition modules? Have the manufacturers arranged things these days so that you can still limp along when the main transistor shorts or opens? Not something you see discussed anywhere. Certainly the manufacturers don't want to bring it up.

[joe_db]

I got tired enough of random failures to switch back to points for now.
Others have had better luck.

Originally Posted by jimesh

I have been wary of putting an electronic ignition into my A4 because I had an electronic ignition module fail hard, abruptly, at 50 mph on the highway some years ago, without warning. I like that the fact that the points-based ignition fails gradually, never catastrophically like that electronic one. You get some warning. I don't want to be in some dangerous situation on the water, depending on the engine for safety, and have it fail abruptly, catastrophically (and you can count on the fact that when it's needed the most is likely to be the time it quits.)

So my question is what are the experiences and thoughts of others? Are hard, catastrophic failures a thing of the past for electronic ignition modules? Have the manufacturers arranged things these days so that you can still limp along when the main transistor shorts or opens? Not something you see discussed anywhere. Certainly the manufacturers don't want to bring it up.

[Mo]

My C&C 30 came with points and condensor and at the time I did a major overhaul on the whole boat...3 yrs ago. I replaced with new points and condensor at that time and bought a second set...coil, cap, wire, plugs, points and condensor.

I did have a fuel (water) problem this year that I thought for sure was electrical. I eventually repaced my ignition system with the spares only to find my problem was fuel.

Since that time I put the older gear back on and the newer (new set) back in the spare box. That has all run well 3 years.

I bought a second engine last year from a friend who (he is a diesel mechanic on ships) put a diesel in his C&C34...that A4 sits in my garage, complete working drop in, but it has the electronic ignition...I know of one other person in my area that has electronic ignition over the points/condensor.

The main point, I think, is that one should have spares on board regardless of what you run...ignition parts, fuel pump, fuel filters, thermostat, a good socket set; wrench set, screw driver set, utililtiy knife, electrical wire, tape, wire joiners and crimper. That usually is enough to keep you out of trouble barring a catostrophic failure.

[Dave Neptune]

Maurice, I'll go for the electronic. The electronic is far superior and will run for many years, mine is going oin it's 11th season and I have been using an electronic on my A-4 for 26 years. I have not had a single bit of trouble with either one. I did replace my orginal which I adapted myself 11 years ago and it is now a spare for my "hot" sand buggie. I upgraded because the new unit had an LED indicator for sparking no other reason.
I have had a few point type fail catastrophically but as you say they ALWAYS just sort of fade, but that's while costing performance and fuel.
I do carry a spare dist plate with a set of points mounted and ready to go as a spare.

Dave Neptune

[Mo]

Certainly something to consider Dave. I think when this set gives up the ghost I will put electronic on and just buy spares. I imagine the coils, caps etc are all different spec ...are they?
Maurice

[tenders]

Personally I never had a particular beef with the analog ignition but the electronic ignition makes my engine run a whole lot smoother with fewer moving parts and I'm not going back.

If any of you Luddites want the spares I have had in my basement, here's a deal for you:

Points:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4332

Condensers:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4331

Also, alternator belts for the OEM alternator:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4333

[Mark S]

Originally Posted by Maurice

The main point, I think, is that one should have spares on board regardless of what you run...ignition parts, fuel pump, fuel filters, thermostat, a good socket set; wrench set, screw driver set, utililtiy knife, electrical wire, tape, wire joiners and crimper. That usually is enough to keep you out of trouble barring a catostrophic failure.

Amen!

Originally Posted by tenders

Personally I never had a particular beef with the analog ignition but the electronic ignition makes my engine run a whole lot smoother with fewer moving parts and I'm not going back.

This has been my experience as well. Cap, rotor and plug wear and tear are greatly reduced and these are just the obvious benefits. I'm sure the rest of the engine benefits from having properly powered and timed spark all the time. A failure would be a pain in the neck, to be sure, but sails and good seamanship should be enough to overcome inconvenience until a repair can be had.

[sastanley]

Originally Posted by Dave Neptune

Maurice, I'll go for the electronic.
<snip>
I do carry a spare dist plate with a set of points mounted and ready to go as a spare.

Dave Neptune

+1 - me too.

[rigspelt]

I switched to electronic modules in our prior boat (twin power) and they ran fine for a decade over many hundreds of miles, then went with the boat. Switched to electronic in this A4 sailboat and for two summers it has been flawless. Very common around our part of the world. Never heard of a significant failure, whereas I recall fiddling a lot with the old points in previous engines.

[ArtJ]

How large must the electronic ignition spark at coil be to keep engine running?
I have never found the Indigo unit to not have a spark after shutdowns,
which lead me to suspecting fuel system.

I assumed that if there is a spark after shutdown, regardless of size, it]
did not cause the shutdown. ie less spark needed to keep engine running
once started?

Is this correct?

Regards

Art

[joe_db]

Here is my history:
For many years and literally thousands of miles the points worked fine. The only issue was the engine could be hard to start if they got wet. I think the engine was only on coil #2 after about 14 years of heavy use.
Then I switched to the Indigo system.
Now coil replacement became more like 1-2 per YEAR instead of 1 per decade.
Also ignition wires, which previously had lasted at least 5 years, now lasted maybe a year at best. My wife refused to go anyplace on the boat unless I could show her a spare coil because she knew it would be required soon
On the good side, the engine was easier to start for sure.
Then the coil died along with the module. A scavenger hunt found some old points and an old coil, so we got home with that. Indigo sent me another module for free which I switched back to. They also sent me 2 free coils !
I may have issues with their ignition, but their customer service is superb. Fast forward to this year when the second Indigo coil died while in a narrow channel with a 2.5 knot current and wind behind me going towards a closed drawbridge
Now I am back to points!
Besides for no failed coils (yet - knock on fiberglass), the random split second stoppage that the Indigo used to do is gone as well. One odd thing I discovered after the last failure is the module would sometimes send a continuous output to the coil instead of sparking once per time the optical trigger was tripped. I discovered the Indigo unit is actually the Crane XR700. Some Google-Fu shows I am not the only one that has ever had issues with those units. If I ever tire of the points, the Pertronix self-contained system will be my choice. The version II modules even have an auto shut-off for when the ignition is left on and also work with low or high resistance coils.

[Dave Neptune]

To all, all the electronic ignition is a switch just like the points. The differance is that there are no points to burn out, wear out, break, go out of adjustment or get pitted and comprimise the power supplied to the coil. In the early days of the electronic ignitions they wer just a "transistorized" control of a very low voltage across the points and the units switch supplied the voltage to the coil. The problem with the early type was that the points "shoe" would still wear against the cam and the contacts would get dirty comprimising performance. All of the above was good at the instalation but the "tune" would slowly deterioriate. With the new types of "electronic ignitions" there is nothing to wear except the cap rotor and the plugs AND because the tune doesn't change the parts last much much longer. Take cars for instance in the recent past we needed to tune them (points plugs condensor and timing) every few thousand miles now we change plugs about every 60 ~100 thousand miles or so~~that is a huge differance in reliability.
If you are worried about the reliability install two units like the Indigo and a switch between them or carry an extra pick up unit like the Pertronics, you could probably change them out faster than you could reinstall the points~~heck even carry an extra distributor if you like. Personally I do carry an extra plate with the points and condensor already mounted and they have sat in the "ditty parts box" for 26 years.
It is a better system all the way around, just take the time to learn how they work and take advantage of what they offer to overall reliability. I use my plugs for two seasons and I change out my cap & rotor every 5 or 6 years not because the beastie is running bad just for piece of mind.

Dave Neptune

[joe_db]

If a shot of ether gets the engine going, you are missing gas. If not, you're missing spark.
As for how much spark, you should get a bright blue spark at LEAST 1/2" from coil wire to engine block.
If you have an Indigo system and it looks weak and yellow, replace the coil wire with another one and see if that helps. You can use any old electrical wire in a pinch, but be aware the insulation won't be shock-proof if you touch it. Don't ask me how I know that
Mine seemed to have had an appetite for coil wires and coils too. It is true that you need more spark to start than to run, but many of these issues are heat related. My Indigo NEVER refused to start. It always ran for awhile and then something would die.

Originally Posted by ArtJ

How large must the electronic ignition spark at coil be to keep engine running?
I have never found the Indigo unit to not have a spark after shutdowns,
which lead me to suspecting fuel system.

I assumed that if there is a spark after shutdown, regardless of size, it]
did not cause the shutdown. ie less spark needed to keep engine running
once started?

Is this correct?

Regards

Art

[tenders]

Joe, yours is the worst story I've ever heard about electronic ignition in any context.

Are you sure your alternator isn't struggling along with a blown diode, putting out 20 volts and blowing all this stuff up?

[joe_db]

A blown diode would reduce the output.
Anyway, I have digital amp and volt meters. No such problem or my $500 AGM battery would have been killed long ago. I run my engine around 100-200 hours per year, so I may be harder on things than many A4 users are.

Originally Posted by tenders

Joe, yours is the worst story I've ever heard about electronic ignition in any context.

Are you sure your alternator isn't struggling along with a blown diode, putting out 20 volts and blowing all this stuff up?