#1
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Running with a sticky valve: can I break something?
Hey Folks. I just re-launched my boat after 11 months on the hard. Among the things I did in the yard was overhauling the carb and fuel pump. I'm glad to say she started right up. A big improvement.
Unfortunately, there is a pronounced ticking, and she seems to be running rough. Not too bad, but noticeable. Prior to layup I did no special precautions with the cylinders; just winterized the cooling system (I'm in Maryland). I'm thinking a valve is sticky and I'm reviewing the numerous threads on that topic for my best options. But my question here is: are there any conditions under which I can damage my engine by running with these symptoms? I need to re-locate to another slip a few hundred yards away, plus troubleshooting etc. I don't mind working on it but I don't want to create a catastrophe! |
#2
IP: 73.209.129.26
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You'll get alot of good input. My experience is if you run for a little while, 10 -20 min a stuck valve after layup will tend to free up. If you have the time squirt some MMO into the cylinders, especially if you can see a raised valve [two tasbelspoons] and turn over the engine briefly w/o spark or fuel. Repeat and let it sit overnight. Start up and run and you have a good chance it will free up. Will be smoky. If you can pull each pug wire one at a time before hand while it's running to indicate which cylinder is problematic you may be able to concentrate your efforts. In any event a couple of hundred yards distance at low RPM [with adequate oil level] should not be a problem if needed but I would try to free it up first.
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The Following User Says Thank You to Sam For This Useful Post: | ||
scratchee (09-27-2020) |
#3
IP: 73.209.129.26
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Also, here in Chicago I change the engine oil and use fogging oil spray though the carb when I hit dock at the winter boat yard. Helps a great deal in the spring start up. Only a suggestion to consider adding it to your routine.
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#4
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Thanks Sam, I'm hoping for a low-stress solution like you described.
Seems like every year I get a little deeper into the systems on this boat, so I think the fogging will definitely be part of the routine next time. I've had her 8 years and this is the first time with this problem, but it should be easy enough to spend a few minutes with the MMO when I haul out. |
#5
IP: 47.142.133.234
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Is there any chance the spark plug wires are not in the correct firing order, 1,2 4,3?
If you pull a wire off a plug and nothing changes just for grins, put a screwdriver in the boot and see if you can jump an arc to the spark plug. If you wear gloves you might not get shocked to badly...... ex TRUE GRIT |
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Sam (09-28-2020) |
#6
IP: 155.186.122.195
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scratchee, another easy way to get valves loosened up is to add some TCW-3 grade of two stroke oil to the fuel. Mix to about 100:1. There will be very little smoke and as the engine breathes it will get a bit of lubing with every pulse of power. As the fuel-air mix goes to the cylinder it will deposit a bit of oil directly to the valve stems. You can use the MMO however the TCW-3 is designed to be mixed with fuel and stay mixed.
Dave Neptune |
#7
IP: 73.172.91.135
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John, very little chance of the cables being out of order. Not zero, but very little. I'll check that when I go out to put some oil in the cylinders.
Dave, thanks for the advice. I may start out with a shot of PB Blaster through the spark plug holes, and see what happens. Long term I'll look at keeping oil in the fuel (I've used MMO in the fuel a few times, but never routinely). I take it from your answer that I don't need to worry about breaking something by running with a sticky or stuck valve? |
#8
IP: 155.186.122.195
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scratchee, if a stuck valve is going to break it will usually happen at start up. A "running" sticky valve just does not close all the way, no biggie at low RPM's and they'll usually break loose with oil in the fuel to keep them (it) lubricated. MMO or TCW-3 at 100:1 is more than enough. I ran my A-4 with the TCW-3 at around 150:1 from the time I owned it until I sold it 34 years later. Never any trouble and my compression numbers improved over the years as I started with a seized motor.
Dave Neptune |
#9
IP: 100.36.65.17
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I regularly run with 8oz of MMO added to the oil at each oil change. This gets the MMO to the bottom of the valves while MMO in the fuel gets it to the tops.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#10
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Update
Alrighty, I stopped by on the way home from work (an "errand") and did a quick compression check.
Naturally, I left my notes on the boat, but it was something like: 1. 0 (closest to the flywheel) 2. 80 3. 70 4. 90 (furthest from the flywheel) I poked around #1 briefly with a bent pick but couldn't really tell what I was feeling. I took a somewhat crappy picture through the hole (see below). The flywheel is to the left in that picture. Is that round shape the edge of the valve? Next step is to put some MMO in that cylinder, crank the starter for a few seconds, and leave it for a day. Or would PB Blaster be better? Those are the two options I have on hand. Thanks everyone... |
#11
IP: 155.186.122.195
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Personally I like using a spray for adding oil to the valve train. The spray will go everywhere whereas the liquid only puddles and follows gravity. Filling with oil is fine for getting pistons shook loose but the spray will get to the valve stem. The spray can be shot in from the spark plug hole and through the carb while giving the engine a spin on the starter.
Oil in the fuel will always get and be there lubricating. Dave Neptune |
#12
IP: 100.36.65.17
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Quote:
WOAH!!! Don't crank any more!!! If I read that picture correctly, you are looking at the valve seat and the sheared-off stem of the valve down in the guide!! This means that the broken-off valve head is bouncing around inside the cylinder doing damage every time you crank!!! Or it may already be punched into either the head or the piston. I'm afraid there's no getting around it. The head must come off to assess the damage and see if the block is salvageable. You may want to do a coolant pressure test before removing the head to test the integrity of the cooling passages, as it is difficult to do once the head is off.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 Last edited by edwardc; 09-30-2020 at 11:34 AM. |
#13
IP: 155.186.122.195
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Careful
Ed, I'm not so sure it is a valve broken off. The 1/4 "moon" at the bottom is a shadow, the 1/3 "moon" is I thing the intake valve, the spot at the top right is discoloration or rust on the top of the block. IMHO
scratchee, what Ed states needs to be confirmed before proceeding. Please confirm what "Ed" sees. His eyes may be better than mine and I have not looked down an A-4 plug hole for a while. Dave Neptune |
#14
IP: 100.36.65.17
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Dave,
I totally see your point. Its like one of those "two faces or a vase" illusions. Suddenly I see it a totally different way. I would be relieved to be wrong. Sorry if I jumped to a wrong conclusion. Just didn't want scratchee to do any avoidable damage. Perhaps one of those inexpensive USB endoscopes could get a better picture. https://www.amazon.com/Inspection-DE...1483004&sr=8-4 Scratchee, where in Maryland are you located?
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
#15
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Wow, thanks for the cardio workout, Ed! Must have been at least two minutes at peak rate.
But Dave is right: the black is shadow, the light color is the top of the block, and the darker part is the top of the valve. I'm confident of this because a) this is actually a frame from a video that contains different aspects, and b) I felt around with a pick and nothing is amiss or moving around. I went and started it up this afternoon about 10 hours after a dose of MMO through the spark plug hole. I used one of my epoxy syringes with a curved tip that can reach over toward the valves. It started right up but is still not firing on #1 cylinder. So I think the next step is some PB Blaster. While running (I only let it go for a minute or so), I do hear a ticking sound that I assume is the cam hitting the bottom of the valve stem (I might be making up the terms, but I think that's the right description). Am I still not concerned about breaking something by doing that? |
#16
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Oh by the way Ed, I do have a little inspection camera like you linked to, though probably not as good as that one. https://www.walmart.com/ip/As-Seen-O...-Cam/800735601
My dream is that one day I will remember to take it to the boat with me. |
#17
IP: 72.69.36.126
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As others have mentioned I'd run the engine for a while to see if the valve frees itself after a few heating/cooling cycles. I wouldn't use PB Blaster in the cylinder, just use MMO, two-stroke, or spray fogging oil. PB Blaster does weird stuff to rubber and you never know when you're going to get it somewhere you didn't expect.
I run MMO in my gas (not my oil) 100% of the time to keep a sticky valve at bay. |
The Following User Says Thank You to tenders For This Useful Post: | ||
Dave Neptune (09-30-2020) |
#18
IP: 100.36.65.17
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For that, I publicly apologize.
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
The Following User Says Thank You to edwardc For This Useful Post: | ||
Surcouf (10-01-2020) |
#19
IP: 174.192.205.18
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Not required at all! I appreciate the warning.... could have been seconds from catastrophe. |
#20
IP: 73.172.91.135
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Okay, happy ending here!
Every day this week I've been stopping by the boat for 10-15 minutes on the way to and from work. I'd run the engine, and if the problem persisted I'd add more/different treatments: MMO in the cylinders with a syringe, Sea Foam sprayed into the cylinder, Sea Foam sprayed into the carb when the engine was running. Then I'd let that sit until the next visit This afternoon she started up and the ticking was gone, but cylinder #1 still wasn't firing. Compression was zero and the engine was shaky and loud. I started to prepare to take the valve cover off, but when I discovered that I'd have to remove the shifter cable (very involved) I decided to just add MMO to the fuel and oil and run it for a while instead, while I worked on other things. After a while the ticking came back intermittently. Then it came back much louder, and I was wondering whether I should shut it down and open that valve cover. But then suddenly the RPMs kicked way up and she smoothed out! A compression check a couple minutes later showed 85 in that cylinder. Unexpected bonus outcome: it's so smooth now that I'm really starting to wonder if I've been running on three cylinders for a while, and just didn't notice. While on the hard for 11 months I rebuilt the carb and fuel pump, so maybe it's just multiple improvements all coming together. Thank everyone for the help! Lessons learned: 1) MMO 2) Sea Foam 3) Patience and faith |
#21
IP: 47.54.60.150
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Dave Neptune once told me about a synthetic product he adds to gas to help the top end in these engines. It would be worth asking him what he used when he had an A-4. Might want to PM him and find out.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
#22
IP: 155.186.122.195
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See post #8 on this thread. The synthetic is specifically designed to stay mixed with gas and lubricate when mixed with gasoline it is nothing more than "synthetic two-stroke oil" the good stuff is (many brands) rated TCW-3.
I use it in all my cars too to keep the cylinders and rings in nice shape. I have 170,000 miles on my Hemi factory 6 spd drag pack. I go 10,000 between oil changes with synthetic oil and the dipstick level is barely down in that time. I got 267,000 out of my Corvette's 350 and pulled the engine still running to drop in a 383 stroker. I gave the engine to a friend who put it in his suburban, he sold it 2 years later. In the cars I mix 1oz to every four gallons or 400/500:1 as a "top oil" and the TCW-3 is catalytic converter safe. I started using the TCW-3 when playing with Rotary performance enhanced engines and modified 2 strokes. GOOD STUFF. To free sticky valves mix 100:1 and to use as a top oil consistently mix an oz to 3 gallons. No smoke, no fouling and a happy motor . Dave Neptune |
#23
IP: 207.32.168.30
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Dave, to clarify, are you using TCW-3 in the gas only, or in both the gas and the oil? If both, is it the same ratio of 1 oz. to 3 or 4 gallons? You call it a 'top oil' which leads me to think it is mixed into the motor oil, but I think you are just mixing it into the gas. I have been using MMO in both oil and gas for years with good results, 8 oz. per oil change and 2 oz. per 5 gal fuel. I think it is much more important to mix it with the fuel.
Scratchee, congratulations on your success. Way to be persistent. Must have been a great feeling when that valve began to move again. Last edited by capnward; 10-04-2020 at 12:58 PM. Reason: encouragement |
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kcallowai (10-06-2020) |
#24
IP: 100.36.65.17
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"I love it when a plan comes together."
--Hannibal Smith
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed 1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita" with rebuilt Atomic-4 |
The Following User Says Thank You to edwardc For This Useful Post: | ||
Surcouf (10-06-2020) |
#25
IP: 23.251.193.2
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MMO on valves
Quote:
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