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  #1   IP: 76.234.76.184
Old 10-24-2015, 11:20 AM
george58 george58 is offline
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Balboa 27

Hello, I am new to sailing and last week bought a Balboa 27. Sailing is something I have always wanted to do so here I am at 57. My boat is a bit of a project but the price was rite. It's all there but the motor. Prop , shaft and plumbing are all there. I don't know what it was but the Atomic 4 sounds interesting. At this point should I go Diesel? Someone have an Atomic for sale?
Not a lot of cash left over but I see where some have changed to just an outboard. I think I would like to have a power plant. Any advice or help is welcome.
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:38 PM
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George,
Welcome to the forum. You'll find lots of folks here that think the A4 is a fine engine, but not any that I know of who will tell you to go diesel.
Any chance the boat originally had an Atomic 4? Might just be a matter of finding an engine and installing it.
Are there engine beds in the boat? Perhaps with studs? The A4 wants a set of studs that are 11 1/2" apart side to side and 15 7/16" fore and aft.
How about the shaft & propeller? If there's a coupling on the shaft, how big is it and how many bolts? Do you know the diameter and pitch of the propeller?
Finding an Atomic 4 shouldn't be a problem. More important is finding a match for your pocket book and your desire/ability to work on a used engine to make it reliable. Many members of this forum find that working on an engine over the winter is a worthwhile and therapeutic project. There are engines available ranging from a) completely overhauled, to b) running takeouts, to c) engines in a basket.
Tell us more about you and the boat..

Last edited by Al Schober; 10-24-2015 at 02:52 PM. Reason: correct stud dimensions
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Old 10-24-2015, 01:48 PM
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Welcome again. We love pictures. Send pictures of engine room, shaft coupling and bed, and I bet we can figure it out.
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Old 10-24-2015, 07:09 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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george58, welcome to the MMI forum.

Does you boat have any filters or fuel tank. If so determine that it was "gas" and an A-4 would probably cost about the same as converting to n OB which is viable on the B-27. I would bet that it had the A-4 just for the weight advantage.

To do a diesel conversion just is not worth the money unless someone gives you a running one!

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-24-2015, 08:20 PM
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I read "Sailing is something I have always wanted to do…"
What I did not read was "I want to restore a boat engine"
I will make enemies but hanging a $1200 kicker on the transom (http://sacramento.craigslist.org/bpo/5283602282.html) will get you past the breakwater and out daysailing in good weather and having some fun.
It will NOT do well in a swell or rough water. Not great for passages

If you WANT an inboard, AND you find a good(price) A-4, I'd say go for it.
A few years ago there was always some guy selling A-4s on the Latitude 38 website:

http://www.latitude38.com/index.lasso


Yea, take some measurements and some photos and post them.

Welcome,
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Old 10-24-2015, 08:23 PM
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Welcome to sailing. I don't mean to pry but for meaningful advice knowing the budget is important information. Often times (nearly always) those new to the sport woefully underestimate the cost and time investment of repairs and improvements. I think everyone on the forum has probably experienced it at one time or another.
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Old 10-25-2015, 08:51 AM
george58 george58 is offline
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Balboa 27

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Old 10-25-2015, 10:22 AM
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Well whatever was in there sure was not an atomic 4 but it's interesting whoever took "it" out left the door open for future options. I see the kicker bracket which sorta tells the tale. As Russ alluded to you need to decide how you intend to use the boat before going into a repower project. Certainly the atomic 4 is a great option if you plan to go cruising and want to have some comforts like inverter power, hot water etc. I remember working on a certain Grampian 26 that carried the atomic nicely.
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Old 10-25-2015, 10:38 AM
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George, here's where I think you are headed with an Atomic 4 installation:

Used, decent running engine $2000.00
Engine mounts (flex mounts, stringers, fiberglass materials) $400.00
Prop shaft & prop (chances are slim the existing shaft and prop are suitable) $600.00
Exhaust system $400.00
Instrument panel and wiring $300.00
Throttle, shift and choke controls, cables $600.00
Engine space blower and ducting $300.00

Rough estimate = $4600.00
assumes the existing fuel system can be used as-is

You may find a used engine for less but by the time it's repaired to reliable running condition I'll bet you'll be at $2K anyway. Notice the engine is less than half of the entire installation.

Hope this helps
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Old 10-25-2015, 10:49 AM
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According to sailboatdata.com, the (optional) OEM inboard was a Petter diesel:

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=644

Based on the obviously added-on bracket in your photo, I would guess that it had been repowered with something else since then.

Found this image of a Lister-Petter Marine engine. Note the same two-lobed flange on the output shaft as the one shown in your photo:

http://www.realdiesels.co.uk/identify/AC1M.jpg
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Old 10-25-2015, 10:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
George, here's where I think you are headed with an Atomic 4 installation:

Used, decent running engine $2000.00
Engine mounts (flex mounts, stringers, fiberglass materials) $400.00
Prop shaft & prop (chances are slim the existing shaft and prop are suitable) $600.00
Exhaust system $400.00
Instrument panel and wiring $300.00
Throttle, shift and choke controls, cables $600.00
Engine space blower and ducting $300.00

Rough estimate = $4600.00
assumes the existing fuel system can be used as-is

You may find a used engine for less but by the time it's repaired to reliable running condition I'll bet you'll be at $2K anyway. Notice the engine is less than half of the entire installation.

Hope this helps
Whoa, pardner. George, I take exception to Neil's "Cadillac" estimate. The job could be done for much less if you are in any way handy with tools.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:04 AM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Not Being Negative On The A4

If you decide to go for an inboard engine a smaller engine (such as the one Ed found) in the space will be a lot easier to work on once installed.
On a different note check the rigging sometime when the mast is down. If you don't know how yourself hire a rigger to do it. It will be somewhere around $100.

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Old 10-25-2015, 07:44 PM
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That Petter AC1M is air cooled and single cylinder. I can only guess why the original owner removed it. I suspect I would have done the same, and considered an outboard a good improvement.
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Old 10-25-2015, 11:16 PM
george58 george58 is offline
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Balboa 27

I think a smaller motor may be my choice but it has to have a clutch and where to find a transmission ?
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Old 10-26-2015, 06:07 AM
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2 cents

You can get into more money than you think taking on a project like this. First thing you need to ask yourself is are you keeping the boat. Have you decided where she will be kept, docked, or moored. What other money do you have to put into it. Electrical all working? Safety gear? Sails? Rigging?

Unless you put in something pretty close to what was in there your shaft and prop might need changing or couplers etc; fuel system, filtering etc; wiring and engine monitoring gauges...it all adds up.

I see there's an outboard mount on the stern. I'll give you my assessment on that.
-nice fairly straight up and down transom...so you will get the best performance from the outboard that it can provide.
-outboards on sailboats have drawbacks; the prop goes in and out of the water in rougher seas; have to lean out and over to start them; unless you have remote controls in the cockpit they are harder to operate and one has to lean out and change throttle speed and gears...imagine that when docking.
-they are generally dependable when maintained; a 9.9hp with a 5 blade prop would push that boat fine in decent conditions.
-they are not too bad on a boat in the harbor or bay but would be less effective off on the coast.

Either way, there are things to ponder.
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Old 10-26-2015, 10:20 AM
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Talking Doing the Ditch

FWIW - I have actually seen boats like yours run the ICW from New York to Florida with an outboard, but the operators were rugged souls.
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Old 10-26-2015, 02:46 PM
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Plan OB

george58, I have put many ah mile under me in foul weather with an OB on a sailboat. The B-27 is very well suited for an OB as the waterline goes to the transom. The water line to the transom means far better contact between the prop and the water~especially when rough!! The OB will give you 2 advantages, first and foremost is the ease of maintenance and second all the additional storage room.

I do suggest you go with a "long shaft" model that has been extended. The additional extension is well worth the effort. And do not scrimp on the bracket if you do go OB.

The log can be easily plugged so changing back can be done if you do desire the "work" and fitting involved at a later date.

I had an electric start 15HP Evinrude with an extension on a non trailerable 27 footer. I hooked up controls in the cockpit and had electric start and somewhat of a charging system. Worked well and my overhang was near 3 feet~a big deal.

Dave Neptune

Remember a good outboard is a "marine motor" and quite rugged.

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Old 10-26-2015, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Schober View Post
That Petter AC1M is air cooled and single cylinder. I can only guess why the original owner removed it. I suspect I would have done the same, and considered an outboard a good improvement.
+1on this.
I would never own a boat with a single cylinder engine. I've been on boats with single cylinder engines. The vibration was so bad it almost shook the fillings out of my teeth. Then there was the headache caused by the vibration to go along with it.

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Old 10-26-2015, 06:39 PM
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John, I used to sail on a friends Hedson Shock "California or Coastal Cruiser" a very good sailing 30 foot sit down inside boat. It had an old Swiss diesel that I do not remember the name of. It was a big single cylinder hand start only diesel and pushed to ole gal well past hull speed~if you could tolerate the beating. I do feel that you could determine the RPM's by counting the changes in the waterline of the boot stripe. Every time that beast lit the hole the water line would change, now that is vibration.

Never did find out much about the engine other than it weighed just over 800 pounds. We had to break it down to get it out of the boat. He mounted an OB to get in and out of the slip with and was very happy about it! And that OB was the big British noisy air/water cooled, Seagull as I remember.

Dave Neptune
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Old 10-27-2015, 01:46 AM
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Never did find out much about the engine other than it weighed just over 800 pounds. We had to break it down to get it out of the boat.
Dave Neptune
If I'm remembering correctly single cylinder ("one lungers" as they were called) needed a heavy fly wheel to keep them running. This made them super inefficient as a lot of fuel energy was used to overcome the inertia of the heavy fly wheel.

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Old 10-27-2015, 05:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
george58, I have put many ah mile under me in foul weather with an OB on a sailboat. The B-27 is very well suited for an OB as the waterline goes to the transom. The water line to the transom means far better contact between the prop and the water~especially when rough!! The OB will give you 2 advantages, first and foremost is the ease of maintenance and second all the additional storage room.

I do suggest you go with a "long shaft" model that has been extended. The additional extension is well worth the effort. And do not scrimp on the bracket if you do go OB.

The log can be easily plugged so changing back can be done if you do desire the "work" and fitting involved at a later date.

I had an electric start 15HP Evinrude with an extension on a non trailerable 27 footer. I hooked up controls in the cockpit and had electric start and somewhat of a charging system. Worked well and my overhang was near 3 feet~a big deal.

Dave Neptune

Remember a good outboard is a "marine motor" and quite rugged.

Dave Neptune
I agree. My C&C 24 had an Evinrude extra long 9.9, 2 stroke....friggin good motor and we took the boat down the coast in it many times...but when it got rough we had what became the usual "reeeeeaaarr" as regular as the waves as the prop came out of the water. We couldn't keep up with the boats with the inboards....those few seconds, combined with conditions, knocked off speed pretty good.

Attached is a pic of OMC outboard bracket. Had one on my C&C 24...like having a body builder lift the engine up with you. I've used allot of outboards and brackets, but I've yet to see one that helped like that...it's still on the boat years after I sold it.
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Old 10-27-2015, 08:12 AM
The Garbone The Garbone is offline
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Our first boat was a Catalina 27 with an outboard. Felt the one that came with the boat was questionable so I bought a almost new Mariner 9.9 longshaft for $900 on Craigslist and the wife helped me mount it. She lifted it with the main sheet and I put it on. Sailed without a hiccup for 2 years with that motor going on several multi week trips. Install time, 1 hour.

My Catalina 30 came just like yours, old diesel gone, shaft and prop and tank in place. Working on the weekends and 2 years later with a Atomic 4 rebuilt in my garage she is just now moving. Probably only have $3500 into the motor but then again that is more than I paid for the boat and not to mention 2 years of slip/dry storage fees.
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Old 10-27-2015, 09:31 AM
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Smile So now you know

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Garbone View Post
Our first boat was a Catalina 27 with an outboard. Felt the one that came with the boat was questionable so I bought a almost new Mariner 9.9 longshaft for $900 on Craigslist and the wife helped me mount it. She lifted it with the main sheet and I put it on. Sailed without a hiccup for 2 years with that motor going on several multi week trips. Install time, 1 hour.

My Catalina 30 came just like yours, old diesel gone, shaft and prop and tank in place. Working on the weekends and 2 years later with a Atomic 4 rebuilt in my garage she is just now moving. Probably only have $3500 into the motor but then again that is more than I paid for the boat and not to mention 2 years of slip/dry storage fees.
Boat ownership is a form of polygamy,,,
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ndutton View Post
George, here's where I think you are headed with an Atomic 4 installation:

Used, decent running engine $2000.00
Engine mounts (flex mounts, stringers, fiberglass materials) $400.00
Prop shaft & prop (chances are slim the existing shaft and prop are suitable) $600.00
Exhaust system $400.00
Instrument panel and wiring $300.00
Throttle, shift and choke controls, cables $600.00
Engine space blower and ducting $300.00

Rough estimate = $4600.00
assumes the existing fuel system can be used as-is

You may find a used engine for less but by the time it's repaired to reliable running condition I'll bet you'll be at $2K anyway. Notice the engine is less than half of the entire installation.

Hope this helps
Here is an more complete explanation of my #s. I am just pulling these off the top of my head as I do not really want to know how much I really spent. This makes me weep a little.

I will go in reverse order, as the things at the top of the list I attempted to reuse and got bit in the ass for the trouble.

After installation:
Fuel pump- $50
Motor mounts- $90
Exhaust hose- $150
Muffler- $50

Before installation:
Electrical gauges, blower- $220
Parts (exhaust manifold that I most likely did not need, rings etc) $500
Exhaust riser and mixer $110
Fuel tank- $450 (in so deep why risk it)
fuel filter and hose $150
Propeller $350
Motor cleaning and resleeving at machine shop $800
2 motors $450, one was basically shot but got a nice head with it.
Electronic ignition $150
Throttle and shift controls and cables (salvage) $200

This adds up to $3720 but I think I am off on the low side on the exhaust hose (20 feet) and left out stuff like the shaft log hose saga and surely I did not add in that I had to do the electronics, blower and IE twice (even the fuel sender) since I got hit by lightning.
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Last edited by The Garbone; 10-27-2015 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 10-27-2015, 10:03 AM
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I forgot intake thru hull, strainer and siphon break as well as the FWC system from out host to $4600 is very right on.......
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