Charging irregularities?

[hanleyclifford]

Atomic 4 Brothers - A perplexing electrical symptom has developed on my boat that has got me stumping. The output from my alternator has become erratic in that both voltage and amperage are jumping around without a clear pattern but with the overall result that the batteries are not being adequately charged, unless I take hold of the ground terminal on the regulator and squeeze with two fingers ! The charging corrects itself at once and if I hold on for several minutes the normal charge sequence ensues. The regulator is a Balmar BRS-2T-12 (BTW exactly the same unit as a Transpo V-1500). As soon as I let go of the terminal the problem returns. When I do this I am not grounded and am not touching any other wire. The ground terminal is just under the green light. I'm jonesin' for some ideas.

[roadnsky]

Hmmm...
Are you near the Bermuda Triangle?

But seriously...
Does it do that no matter WHERE you grab it on the ground wire?

•Broken strands inside the wire that you are "squeezing together?
•Bad crimp that you are "lifting" up to make contact?

Can you run a TEST ground wire to see if you're still getting the same symptoms?

[hanleyclifford]

Jerry - Thanks for the comeback. I have replaced the wire and connector with new #14 tinned wire. I can only get the effect if I squeze right on the bare terminal with wire connected - anywhere else along the wire or at the alternator end of the wire --no effect. I have a working theory that somehow my body is acting as a capacitor (condenser?) of some sort. But why would this make the thing work right? I have looked thru the instructions to see if it is required to ground the unit's housing, but no information. One other piece of information: the system includes a noise suppressor for the alternator. Has anyone ever heard of these things causing charging problems?

[ndutton]

I think you've got a loose or broken solder joint internally where the ground terminal attaches to the circuit board. Grabbing the external terminal manipulates the break enough to restore the connection. Dismantling and resoldering should do the trick.

[hanleyclifford]

Neil - Thanks for the comeback. I did consider that possibility and got a new regulator which does exactly the same thing right out of the box.

[ndutton]

As a test you might try relocating the ground wire away from the bundle over its entire length. This would eliminate any possible inductance issue.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by hanleyclifford

I have looked thru the instructions to see if it is required to ground the unit's housing, but no information. One other piece of information: the system includes a noise suppressor for the alternator. Has anyone ever heard of these things causing charging problems?

Is this a new installation?
I looked at the Online Installation guide and it shows the ground coming FROM the Alternator's ground.

It also has a big warning:
"REMOVAL OF THE BLACK WIRE WITH POWER ON THE REGULATOR WILL DAMAGE THE REGULATOR"

There is also a discussion about using the STATOR connection and making sure the ground is not connected there.
If I'm reading it correctly, it says the unit will NOT work unless it receives voltage on the stator wire FROM the alternator.

Any of these give you any ideas?
I also agree with Neil about checking for possible inductance...

[hanleyclifford]

Neil and Jerry - Thanks for your input and research. I'm going to investigate and follow your suggestions --- as soon as the Patriots have finished off the (Tigers?). Hanley

[hanleyclifford]

Update on the charging issue. I investigated the ground path from the regulator to alternator and block. Corrected some weak connections and the problem continues but with lesser amplitudes both in volts and amps. The noise suppressor does not appear to be the culprit though there is definitely some flow to ground from the unit. A check of AC voltage at the stator showed a range of 6.3 to 8.2 volts, and irregular. This is a little disturbing - I was always under the impression that the voltage at the stator should be half the DC ouput voltage which was 14.2. Field voltage ranged from 2 volts up to around 3.3 once the engine had run for a few minutes. However inasmuch as the stator input to the regulator appears to have some influence on the signal the field numbers may be irrelevant for now. BTW I replaced the harness. Initially I had just plugged the regulator in since it is the same as the old. Now all wires from the regulator are new tinned #14. I am becoming suspicious of the alternator itself. Thanks to Neil and Jerry for their pointers and insight which has me moving in the right direction. More to follow. Regards, Hanley

[ArtJ]

I recently purchased a xantrex 3 stage regulator, actually made by
Balmar. It works great. The only thing i noticed was that once
the battery was nearly fully charged it seemed to go into a repetitive
pattern of fluctuations. I spoke with Balmar customer service and they
told me to set the float voltage up a tenth of a volt to prevent this
hunting as I call it.

The only other issue I found was that the magnetic relay switches
used to set up the unit were difficult to actuate. Balmar said to
put the magnetic screwdriver on top of the heat sink, said it was due
to thick coating of expoxy on the PC board.

Regards,
Art

[ndutton]

Strangely (or serendipitously) a thread from a year and a half ago was resurrected over on SailBoatOwners.com today entitled What works/ What doesn't?

http://forums.catalina.sailboatowner...336#post750336

The thread starter is a moderator and one of those guys that when he posts, it's best to pay attention (really knows his stuff) and in his original post under his 'What doesn't' list is this:

Balmar Regulators - Experienced failures of two ARS-4's and one ARS-5 all the same exact type of failure where you could wiggle the plug and make it work but something broke inside the poured epoxy PC board. Balmar was tough to deal with but West marine stood behind the product each time.

Naturally I immediately thought of this thread.

[roadnsky]

An excellent use of serendipitous Grasshopper!

[ndutton]

[off topic]
Thanks Jerry,
I'm still humbled by my stinging defeat this past winter and in pouting over it I think I'll keep my old spark plugs until they're reduced to nubs.

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by ndutton

[off topic]
Thanks Jerry,
I'm still humbled by my stinging defeat this past winter and in pouting over it I think I'll keep my old spark plugs until they're reduced to nubs.

Maybe Bill will make it an ANNUAL contest?
(Hint, hint)

Sorry, Hanley...

[hanleyclifford]

The notion of "wiggling" a terminal to make it work intrigues me. Was it the wiggle that made it work or was it as in my case the connection to the human "capacitor" that made it work? I was very careful not to wiggle, just clamp with my fingers. In any case it is interesting to hear from Art that he too experiences the "cycling" effect. I remembered that last time I took the alternator apart I had not rebedded the negative diodes in lithium grease; so I took it down again, cleaned and rebedded the diode plate and just for good measure did the stator connection too. After all, the ground on the outside of the alternator is only as good as the internal connections to the negative diodes. The issue did not go away but has moderated. AC voltage at the stator has stabilized some between 7 and 7.5 volts. The funny part about all of this is that I thought I was replacing a bad Transpo V-1200 regulator with a Balmar BRS-2T-12; but they are EXACTLY the same item, probably made with child labor in Bangladesh under a Chinese contract! I plan to contact Balmar to try and figure the next move. Thanks to all for your enlightening posts. Regards, Hanley

[hanleyclifford]

Atomic 4 Brothers - Take a look at the picture and note the capacitor in the regulator ground circuit (ordinary ignition). The regulator body isn't even grounded. The problem appears to be solved! But how? Why? I need some electrical insight or this is going to drive me nuts (short trip)! Thanks, Hanley

[sastanley]

Hanley, I know nothing of your electrical problems, but your picture quality has jumped quantum leaps!

it even looks good on my new smartphone!

[ndutton]

This comment is not specific to your installation but normally capacitors installed in that fashion are there for noise suppression.

[Administrator]

The only thing i noticed was that once
the battery was nearly fully charged it seemed to go into a repetitive
pattern of fluctuations. I spoke with Balmar customer service and they
told me to set the float voltage up a tenth of a volt to prevent this
hunting as I call it.

I have a Balmar alternator and regulator which exhibit exactly the same behavior. When I'm doing something like retensioning the alternator belt, I have to turn on every light and navigational instrument on the boat in order to present a load to the alternator and stop the hunting.

As Art pointed out, this behavior is observed only when the batteries are at or very near a full charge.

Bill

[hanleyclifford]

Well there is some comfort in having company in the issue. But that leaves the question: why has this little condenser apparently cured the irregularity? Is the actual case of the regulator supposed to be grounded to the engine? Another little weirdness - I just checked the voltage (engine off) between the red wire (always hot) and the casing - .3 volts: so is the casing supposed to be grounded or is the ground just leaking to it's case? I could find nothing about this in the Balmar literature. Does anyone else specifically ground their case on this type of regulator?

[ArtJ]

Hanley
Have you spoken to Tech support at Balmar?

I found them helpful and knowledgeable sp? . I think I mentioned in my
post that they suggested raising the float voltage 0.1 v to stop hunting.

Regards

Art

[hanleyclifford]

Art - Yes, I remember your post on this. Did that suggestion work for you? Regards, Hanley

[ArtJ]

Hi Hanley

I have not followed thru with the recommendation to up the float voltage
by 0.1 volts. Primarily because the switches are difficult to active with
the magnetic screwdriver and secondly because once I realized that
the fluctuations were not believed to affect the charging, I didn't want
to risk modifications that might result in a incorrect setting during the
season. I also had other fish to fry as you know from my fuel related
postings.

Regards

Art

[hanleyclifford]

The perplexing and maddening issue with the Transpo 1500 adjustable regulator has been solved on the road. While trying to adjust the NAPA mechanical contact style regulator I briefly reconnected the old regulator that I thought was no good[/I]while the regulator was laying on the seat, not mounted in the position shown in post #1[/I]. Encouraged, I remounted it in the position shown in post #1--it would not work. Moved it back to the seat and it worked again. Answer to the problem---the regulator will not work in close proximity to the tachometer which evidently sets up a field the regulator does not like. Regulator now moved to other end of instrument panel and all is well. Who'd 'a thunk it?

[jpian0923]

Was this a Don Moyer assisted fix?