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  #1   IP: 71.232.145.132
Old 11-02-2009, 05:58 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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HEAT of Engine Cover on Tartan 34C

I have noticed that the engine cover of my Tartan 34 c becomes very
very hot, especially when the engine has the indigio prop and is running
around 180 degrees for several hours. I keep the exhaust fan running all the time, but the
top access cover becomes so hot that it is almost too hot to touch..
There is foil lined insulation on the interior of the cover.

The engine is located in the very center of the main salon on the
Tartan 34C. My solution has been to keep the cover off. This system
has been used on the boat for many many years, but only recently
have I kept the engine running for many hours at 180 degrees.

Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:22 AM
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Marian Claire Marian Claire is offline
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I placed an oven thermometer on the head of my early model. It always reads about 20 degrees higher than my water temp. I rebuilt a year ago so I believe that the water passages are open. If there are obstructions I think the difference in water and head temp could be even greater. Could the hatch be affected by the head temp? Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 11-02-2009, 08:34 AM
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I think the head is clear. I am freshwater cooled and have good flow.
I also flushed and checked the saltwater pump and put a larger
moyer heat exchanger in.

I think that the increased rpm and resulting heat may be the cause.
I am wondering if people put a larger exhaust fan, add a vent or just
live with it on similar installations.
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Old 11-02-2009, 12:09 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Question Temp

ArtJ, I too have a mid engine set-up in my ole E-35 MKII. The engine box is just as big as it needs to be to "shoe-horn" in the A-4. I am also using the Indigo prop and noticed more heat, however that is because the Indigo prop allows you to achieve more rpm and horse power. When you are making more HP you are making more heat for the engine, engine box, and cooling system to radiate out. Ther is just more heat to get rid of. What is the Temp value of your thermostat?
I am using a bypasss valve and salt water to cool my A-4. I have set the valve to achieve about 140 degrees at 1800~~2100 rpms. The engine box and top get warm BUT not hot, infact my wife, daughter and dog all sleep in the cabin with the dinnett bed made up on top of the engine and love the warmth during long morning passages to Catalina.
Perhaps you could try a cooler thermostat. I have been running mine for 26 years now with no thermostat at between 130~~140 degrees and no problems!
I also run my blower whenever the engine is running!!!!

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-02-2009, 02:39 PM
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Dave
Don Moyer and Indigo recommend running the engine at 180 degrees

When running at 140 to 160 the engine box is not nearly so hot. but When pushing the engine at or above 1900 RPM the temperature climbs to 180

Which is the recommended temperaure

Regards

Art
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Old 11-02-2009, 03:24 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Question Temps

There are many opinions on proper operating temps, the warmer being a little better for wear and tear on the engine. For the last 25 years of operating my 40 year old (never rebuilt) A-4 it has run about 130 degrees and when really pushing her it rises to just below 140, no thermostat.

What is the opening temp of the thermostat you are using? If you are using a 140 or a 160 degree and it rises to 180 then something is amiss in the system. You could have a dirty heat exchanger or block. Probably all you will need to do is flush, or acid flush both. It is usually necessary to flush every 4~5 years. Check for a blockage at the exit of the manifold by removing the water fitting and inspect, this seems to be a point where stuff piles up causing a restriction in flow. Sometimes a piece of the water pump impeller will break off and that can get stuck many different places, it may be worth a look at the impeller's before proceeding.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:38 PM
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Dave

Don Moyer says that the late model engine with bypass will stabilize around
180 degrees. I have noticed that tje engine likes 160 or 170 much better, in fact
the valve noise that we talked about elsewhere becomes more pronounced
at 180 degrees. The impellers and pumps are new. the Flow was checked
using a 5 gal bucket to see how quick it emptied and it did so well within spec
if I remember correctly

The engine with the original large prop from Tartan could never reach over
1700 rpm and never got very hot. It is with the indigio prop and being
pushed over 1900 that the temperature gets to 180 degrees.

I don't know if it is possible to get 140 or 160 degrees with the by pass
system, possibly by closing off partially the by pass valve.

Other options are to use the early model doyle thermostat with
fresh water cooling on the late model engine which I am told
by Don will allow much closer temperature control
The other option is to use the indigio bypass mixing valve. which
allows one to set the exact desired temperature. I have
one which I have had several years and never installed.

Indigo cautions never to let water boil or the valve may melt, also
the setup is a little complex as the system upon initial startup
will not demand water for the block so it must be done manually
by removing hoses temporarily.

You bring up a interesting point about lower temperature operation
because the engine seems to like 160 degrees much better than
180 degrees.
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Old 11-02-2009, 04:48 PM
wlevin wlevin is offline
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Art
We have a Tartan 34 like yours and normally cruise at 1800 rpm and the engine access cover never gets more than warm. Ours is just three quarter inch plywood with some old, not very efficient insulation taped underneath. I'm pretty sure that with respect to operating temperature, 1800 rpm is 1800 rpm no matter what prop you have. Like most of the folks on the list who have answered the question about operating termperature, our engine settles in at 160 degrees at our normal cruising rpm, so I suspect you have a problem with your cooling passages, or are using the higher temp thermostat. However, even when we ran with that thermostat at 180 degrees the engine cover never got too hot to touch. Is it possible that your foil-lined "insulation" is somehow actually conducting heat right to the cover? That was the case with the hot exhaust pipe in our plywood exhaust stack. (T34 owners will know what this looks like.)
Bill and Jeanne
T34C #453
Otter
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Old 11-02-2009, 06:26 PM
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How about 190?

We were able to get out for one final sail before the E29 is pulled tomorrow.
Being new to the boat and the fact the gust up to 34 knots forced us to motor further than we usually do I had time to study the engine read outs.
My fuel guage seems inoperative and no RPM read out at all. No hole for one either so I am guessing the E29 did not have one originally.
The oil pressure went up to about 40 and as low as 35 with different throttle settings. Engine temp held steady at 190 the whole time. I know the engine book recommends 180 but is 190, given possible variances in wiring and dials, a big problem.
The nice thing is since the new solenoid the engine starts like a champ and the hammer has stayed stowed.
Pat
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Old 11-03-2009, 11:50 AM
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on another tack

I just thought I'd throw this out there.
Do you suppose your carburator is jetted a little lean?
Maybe it is perfect for lower rpm but now you can huff more air, and thus is gets a little hot for those long runs.

If 180 is ok, then maybe you have a radiant heat problem. The hot section might be getting nice and hot.

Is the blower fan really moving air?
Do you have sufficient cool air returning to the engine box?

I once cooled a hot engine(car) in the Arizona dessert by making a vodka injector out of my windshield washer pump. It worked ok until I got to a junk yard to get a new fan. Straight P.A. vodka down the venturi of the cab. I had to keep pumping my foot whenever I saw the temp climb back up.

cheers,
Russ
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  #11   IP: 71.232.145.132
Old 11-03-2009, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlevin View Post
Art
We have a Tartan 34 like yours and normally cruise at 1800 rpm and the engine access cover never gets more than warm. Ours is just three quarter inch plywood with some old, not very efficient insulation taped underneath. I'm pretty sure that with respect to operating temperature, 1800 rpm is 1800 rpm no matter what prop you have. Like most of the folks on the list who have answered the question about operating termperature, our engine settles in at 160 degrees at our normal cruising rpm, so I suspect you have a problem with your cooling passages, or are using the higher temp thermostat. However, even when we ran with that thermostat at 180 degrees the engine cover never got too hot to touch. Is it possible that your foil-lined "insulation" is somehow actually conducting heat right to the cover? That was the case with the hot exhaust pipe in our plywood exhaust stack. (T34 owners will know what this looks like.)
Bill and Jeanne
T34C #453
Otter
When these engines are fresh water cooled they run at 180
degreees per Don Moyer which is what he actually targets.

However, I think I am going to run mine around160 using the bypass
valve.
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:52 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb Temps part II

Artj, as another idea, how long is the "HOT" section of your exhaust before the water is inserted into the exhaust. Also is your exhaust "wrapped" along the hot section? That may expose more heat to the box.

Dave Neptune
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Old 11-06-2009, 08:20 AM
wlevin wlevin is offline
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ArtJ

Dave Wrote:
"Artj, as another idea, how long is the "HOT" section of your exhaust before the water is inserted into the exhaust. Also is your exhaust "wrapped" along the hot section? That may expose more heat to the box."

I think Dave has a good idea here. The hot section of exhaust pipe on our T34 is probably 20 inches long before it goes into the stack that holds the muffler, and it is wrapped with at least two layers of insulating fiberglass wrap. It still gets hot to the touch, but nothing like what it would be if it were exposed.

Also, you mentioned that "When these engines are fresh water cooled they run at 180 degrees" but our fresh water cooled engine runs at 160 and it seems fine.
Bill and Jeanne
T34C #453
Otter
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Old 11-07-2009, 10:28 AM
ArtJ ArtJ is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wlevin View Post
ArtJ

Dave Wrote:
"Artj, as another idea, how long is the "HOT" section of your exhaust before the water is inserted into the exhaust. Also is your exhaust "wrapped" along the hot section? That may expose more heat to the box."

I think Dave has a good idea here. The hot section of exhaust pipe on our T34 is probably 20 inches long before it goes into the stack that holds the muffler, and it is wrapped with at least two layers of insulating fiberglass wrap. It still gets hot to the touch, but nothing like what it would be if it were exposed.

Also, you mentioned that "When these engines are fresh water cooled they run at 180 degrees" but our fresh water cooled engine runs at 160 and it seems fine.
Bill and Jeanne
T34C #453
Otter
Thanks for the information. Yes the exhaust is wrapped.

I think the biggest solution was substituting the small universal
heat exchanger for the larger moyer marine exchange with
more capacity. I think the heat results from attempting to run
at the ( moyer and indigo) recomended 180 degree temperature.
Thanks
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Old 01-14-2010, 04:30 AM
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exhaust too hot

i can see this is an old post. My Tartan 34c has a stock system, FWC, wrapped dry exhaust until the standpipe. I have always had the wood near the exhaust get very hot. too hot to touch. When i ran the ICW i had some fans blowing on the exhaust and engine. It barely kept it cool enough to not burn. too hot to touch.
I am totally frustrated. I just had a 30 hour run down to key west and another run of 30 hours back I ran at 1800 rpm indigo prop. I can run 2100.+ but 5.5kn was good being 60 miles offshore. Engine temp was 180 steady. I dont think fooling with engine temp will make a diff. I have to either go to a waterlift muffler or have a powerful ventilating system. The t34 has a box around the wrapped exhaust (mine is well wrapped). A fan pulling the air up and out the top might work. might. but this fan would be pulling very hot gas and i dont know if i might find a fan rated for these temps. the blower is not meant to run continuously, plus it pulls air inches from the ex pipe and then shoots it back on the pipe and a seal keeps the in and out seperated. but i ran the fan --5 minutes and i burned my fingers.There is some room under the floor for a muffler-but it would be more of a thinner muffler then MMI has. I have a plastic Vetus Lp50waterlock which might fit it is 4 inches wide by 12 long maybe 8high. but I think they make a 40 which might be better. I think I wll as Don. the t34c site is down now
pass th word
thanks

Really I need to know who and how people have used a waterlift muffler in the t34c a4 or diesel.
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Old 01-14-2010, 07:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
i can see this is an old post. My Tartan 34c has a stock system, FWC, wrapped dry exhaust until the standpipe. I have always had the wood near the exhaust get very hot. too hot to touch. When i ran the ICW i had some fans blowing on the exhaust and engine. It barely kept it cool enough to not burn. too hot to touch.
I am totally frustrated. I just had a 30 hour run down to key west and another run of 30 hours back I ran at 1800 rpm indigo prop. I can run 2100.+ but 5.5kn was good being 60 miles offshore. Engine temp was 180 steady. I dont think fooling with engine temp will make a diff. I have to either go to a waterlift muffler or have a powerful ventilating system. The t34 has a box around the wrapped exhaust (mine is well wrapped). A fan pulling the air up and out the top might work. might. but this fan would be pulling very hot gas and i dont know if i might find a fan rated for these temps. the blower is not meant to run continuously, plus it pulls air inches from the ex pipe and then shoots it back on the pipe and a seal keeps the in and out seperated. but i ran the fan --5 minutes and i burned my fingers.There is some room under the floor for a muffler-but it would be more of a thinner muffler then MMI has. I have a plastic Vetus Lp50waterlock which might fit it is 4 inches wide by 12 long maybe 8high. but I think they make a 40 which might be better. I think I wll as Don. the t34c site is down now
pass th word
thanks

Really I need to know who and how people have used a waterlift muffler in the t34c a4 or diesel.
I think the problem on the t34c is agravated by running at higher rpm.
When I had the original prop and could do 6 knots at 1700 rpm in calm
seas the engine cover was much cooler. Now with a indigo prop it can
get very hot as you mention.

Regarding a water lift muffler, contact Tom Stevens at atomic4.com he
has a t34c which he has devised a water lift muffler for which exits the
stern.
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