leak

[Surcouf 23]

Good morning,

long story short: A 1979 Catalina 27 purchased last winter, spent most of the time of wood trim, sailing / rigging etc...
- A4 seems original
- sea water cooled
- nicely rusted on the head
- starts great, runs very well.
- Winterized + oil changed by marina.
- 2 front spark plugs will not come out, solid rusted. I would say they have not been removed for quite a few years... I have been pouring liquid wrench // WD40 on those 2 every few weeks during the winter, hoping they would get out... but no. But still runs nice, I think on its 4 cylinders.
Was hoping to dive deep into of it next winter, potentially pulling it out. the Anyway.

My issue today is a leak on a cooling hose: it is the small piece of hose that is located just upstream of the valve part of the upgrade Cooling system bypass kit - late model Product No. - CSOT_01_61.
Hose visible on the picture
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html

It pours sea water at the hose clamp. I tried to tighten, it seems healthy, hose doe snot seem damaged, but still leaks.

My question: could there be an issue in the cooling system that would lead the pressure to suddenly buid-up and the hose to leak? Or should the hose not leak in any case?

Thank you!!

Surcouf
Best regards

[Mo]

Take video with your cell phone and upload it....we'd have a better idea of what's going on there.

Also, how is the discharge out the transom...video of that as well so we can see.

[JOHN COOKSON]

Originally Posted by Surcouf 23

Good morning,

- 2 front spark plugs will not come out, solid rusted. I would say they have not been removed for quite a few years... I have been pouring liquid wrench // WD40 on those 2 every few weeks during the winter, hoping they would get out... but no. But still runs nice, I think on its 4 cylinders.

It pours sea water at the hose clamp. I tried to tighten, it seems healthy, hose doe snot seem damaged, but still leaks.

Surcouf
Best regards

If the engine is running really running on all 4 (feel the spark plugs to see if they are all warm) run it up good and warm then try to loosen the reluctant spark plugs.
The barb is most likely a gonner or out of round. Cut the hose off and have a look.

TRUE GRIT

[Al Schober]

As for the leak, my first try would be a new hose clamp.

[Surcouf 23]

So after a couple hours of investigation... issue is waaay worse than I was thinking.
There is a hole in the side plate.
Video is not very clear, but water is dripping out from a hole in the middle of the plate, on the front part of the plate, between the first 2 bolts.
https://youtu.be/ojW66mXOfOI



Yes, that sucks big time.. Marina service department doe snot have anybody available for such a job before a good week. When I asked if he could recommend any good reliable outside mechanic who knows Atomic 4.. he laughed and told me that if he knew such guy, he would already have hired him..

So I am going to try to do it myself, and takes any advice // recommendations from the community. It seems that my plate bolts are not too old, and I hope they will come off without breaking.

I called Moyer Marine and I will receive tomorrow noon:
- a new plate fully mounted, with fitting
- new plates bolts / nuts / washers
- a new thermostat gasket (I plant to remove it, as the cooling by-pass kit is attached to it)

I also have some new cooling hose and clamps to replace the small piece of tube of the by-pass kit.

So my questions:
- do I need more material than the list above?
- should I heat the plate nuts with a small torch to loosen them up?
- what should I use to seal the plate?
- can I change that plate without removing the starter? I know the alternator is going out.
- What primer should I use to paint the block once I have changed the plate?
- any chance this can be done in a day? (I am dreaming I know..)

Thank you for your help and advices!!!!

[Vermonstah]

Surcouf,

First, welcome to the Forum. You have come to the right place. The expertise embodied by the members here will stun you, and so will their willingness to assist you.

The true experts will be along soon. But here are a few tips that will get you started:

Purchase the Moyer manual for the A4. It is worth its wait to you in gold.

Moyer recommends Permatex (aviation) for sealing gaskets. That little bottle they sell here will last forever. If you did not include it in your recent order, you can likely find it locally at an auto parts store.

You will find in another post that I recently replaced the water jacket side plate. I had another issue that required me to tear down the entire alternator side of my engine - the 6" nipple on the aft drain broke off in the block. While I had that whole side of the engine torn down, I opted both for a new side plate as well as conversion to Moyer's studs kit. The studs are great but they need to set before you can torque on them. From your original post, I could not tell if you opted for the stud kit or new bolts. But if you opted for the stud kit, then that alone makes this more than a one day job.

Removing the bolts from your existing side plate. Patience is the key. You don't want to shear one of these off if you can avoid it. Not the end of the world if it happens, but a PITA you don't need right now. So, I like PB Blaster but others here also use Kroil with good results.

If you are confident that you don't have any sources of leaking fuel, any at all, not even the slightest hint of fuel in the bilge, then you can use heat to free those bolts. But be real careful. OK, end of sermon.

Patience, penetrating oil, an impact wrench if you have one and heat as necessary will loosen those bolts.

Good luck. And the experts will be along every step of the way if you get stuck.

[hanleyclifford]

As a general rule it is bad to torque into a casting, especially a thin spot like the side plate location. Studs are way superior - and the use of lock washers as opposed to brass or copper is a near guarantee of a leak.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I don't like to be the bearer of bad news but in the pictures it looks as if the side plate has been leaking around the edge. The leaking may have lead to corrosion of the engine casting itself. It may be necessary to build up some of the areas on the casting to get a good seal.

TRUE GRIT

[Surcouf 23]

So after 2 hours of work, the plate is out. No broken bolts, that were quite new.
I only removed the alternator arm, and lifted it above the block to access plate bolts.
The plate itself is just a piece of cheese. Just by cleaning it with the hose more holes appeared,,,
There is a good inch of mud and crap in the block. Any advice on how to clean that?
New plates was delivered at 11AM. Back in the boat in an hour to try to put all that back together....
Gia is just to go through the season, that block is coming out next winter!

Thank you for the advices!!!

[Surcouf 23]

Pic2 cheese plate

[Surcouf 23]

Inside the block

[hanleyclifford]

Usually a block is toasted long before a side plate looks like that - you must have been nice to someone.

[Surcouf 23]

This is what I have extracted from the side of the engine... Only a matter of time!!

But it runs strong (and dry now). Sailing tomorrow!!!

[Surcouf 23]

So a few notes for the next one who will have to do that:
- I could not use all the new bolts sent by MM, the top rear one is too long due to interference with coil. I have re-used the shorter ones used by the PO, still in great shape. Just too lazy to remove the coil, and afraid that the more I remove, the highest the chance I will not be able to re-install...
- changing the side plate in a Catalina 27 without removing the starter is feasible. The alternator can be flipped to the vertical position above the engine for better access
- cleaning the flange from previous gaskets // old permatex took me at least an hour, to get something nice and smooth (key to avoid repeating the operation).
- I used permatex "make a gasket" that I had in my garage from previous work on cars. I know that MM recommends the aviation one... but I am a cheap guy
- the torque for thermostat housing bolts is 35lb/ft
- have some 1/2" ID cooling hose ready when doing so, to replace the small piece between by-pass valve and plate fitting
- make sure to shut down batteries when doing that operation, the "+" is live at the back of the alternator... (I got nice sparks when the thermostat housing touched it...)
- MM was perfect: I called at 2PM Friday, got parts (full plate + washer + bolts + thermostat housing gasket) sent overnight ($$, but I really wanted to try to sail on Sunday), received Saturday at 11AM in RI.
- be ready to clean the inside of the block. I quickly tried to extract with my fingers + small tools as much crap I could, but it is tough, it is deep, it is gooey... and block is so rusted that I fear that if I clean everything I am going to create new leaks on that engine block. It is only a matter of time before that block collapses on itself..

I was just a very lucky guy, all bolts came off very easy as a PO opened recently and change bolts. But be ready for a LOOONG day kneeling // seating // bending yourself, scratching your arms and your fingers... and collecting an impressive amount of big pieces of "engine rust"

Only bad news of the day, the 2 front spark plugs would not come out with the impact wrench. I sprayed again liquid wrench on them. I am stubborn I will get them!

Thanks again to everybody for your help the last days!!!

[edwardc]

Forget Liquid Wrench.

The two most effective penetrants are

1) 50/50 mix of Acetone and Automatic Transmission Fluid (ATF)
2) Kano Kroil

[JOHN COOKSON]

If you can somehow tap the spark plugs when you apply the penetrating stuff it will help it do its job better. Maybe a screw driver and hammer on the base of the spark plug.
Have a thread chaser near by when you get the reluctant spark plugs out. Odds are you will need to clean the threads up a bit. I found one at my local "boutique" auto parts store.
I always wear a long sleeve shirt when I work on\around the engine.

TRUE GRIT

[Surcouf 23]

thank you for the advice.

[Hymodyne]

the side plate in franken four is leaking, at the bolts. I used lock washers on the build where can I get copper? should they be crush or just flat?

James

[hanleyclifford]

Originally Posted by Hymodyne

the side plate in franken four is leaking, at the bolts. I used lock washers on the build where can I get copper? should they be crush or just flat?

James

http://www.mcmaster.com/#93744a140/=12y4upm Lots of choices with McMaster