Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Electrical

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 73.38.252.14
Old 06-04-2016, 08:00 PM
mikke60 mikke60 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 37
Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Batteries

A little off topic maybe, but what are most of you using for batteries onboard?
Thanks, mike
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 107.0.6.150
Old 06-04-2016, 08:36 PM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

group 31, flooded, deep cycle
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 73.255.216.151
Old 06-04-2016, 10:16 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
group 24 starting battery lead acid flooded

Trojan 6 volt deep cycle lead acid flooded (golf cart size) I think that they are T-105

Last edited by romantic comedy; 06-04-2016 at 10:43 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 108.90.160.12
Old 06-04-2016, 10:24 PM
The Garbone The Garbone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 299
Thanks: 15
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Have mix of 2 group 27s and a Group 24 starter battery. All of unknown age but still working well as I got them with the boat 3 years ago. All the battery trays and wiring is new though and I am waiting for the 27s to die so I can put in some golf cart batteries.
__________________
Gary
78' Catalina 30 #1179
www.svknotaclew.wordpress.com
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 132.147.29.249
Old 06-05-2016, 09:05 AM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Gel 31 for house and gel U1 for start. Note gel is NOT the same as AGM
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 06-05-2016, 09:34 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Mike, please consider your current charging system if thinking of changing your battery type. Said another way, changing the battery type may require a complete charging system change for the new batts to perform well. I learned this the hard way. The dimension of AGM's solved a fitment problem and I'd read only wonderful reviews of them, deep cycling, 3X life, faster recharge and they would would fit where I wanted to put them, a perfect solution @ $240.00 per.

Yeah, until I spent a weekend at Catalina.

What all the glowing reports didn't say was the AGM preferred a higher charging voltage and different charging profile than my system (that worked well with conventional flooded batteries) delivered. Hours of engine run time produced a poor recharge, the battery lasted barely 2 hours after recharging, refrigeration shut down (low voltage shut down protection circuitry), lighting was dim, water pump barely ran at all. I decided I was unwilling to spend more on a new charging system just to make these expensive batteries perform up to the advertising claim - - or even back to the level of the old batteries we've all used in the past.

As you can surmise, I continue to use conventional flooded batteries.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others

Last edited by ndutton; 06-05-2016 at 09:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
hanleyclifford (06-05-2016), sastanley (06-07-2016)
  #7   IP: 107.0.6.150
Old 06-05-2016, 09:48 AM
hanleyclifford's Avatar
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 6,978
Thanks: 172
Thanked 280 Times in 226 Posts
Talking

At $240 a pop the fancy stuff would have to last over twice the time of the el cheapo flooded - and perform. Dollar for dollar and amp hour for amp hour I don't see how you beat the boutique flooded 31s.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to hanleyclifford For This Useful Post:
sastanley (06-07-2016)
  #8   IP: 24.152.132.65
Old 06-05-2016, 10:07 AM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
At $240 a pop the fancy stuff would have to last over twice the time of the el cheapo flooded - and perform. Dollar for dollar and amp hour for amp hour I don't see how you beat the boutique flooded 31s.
The attraction was fitment. The AGM would fit where ANY flooded batt of decent amp-hours would not. After trying the AGM my conclusion turned out to be the same as yours, it wasn't worth it. A different battery location was in order.

The good news was I only bought one AGM, not an entire boat's worth. It now sits on my spare engine stand in starting duty.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 108.90.160.12
Old 06-05-2016, 12:56 PM
The Garbone The Garbone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 299
Thanks: 15
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
I work for the phone company and we started putting new gen batteries at all our "critical" locations. You are dead on about the recharge rate as the same amp hours in battery bank required many more rectifiers to feed initially causing very high loads on the power supply and heat failures as well as harness failures etc. Sure the cells last 10 years as apposed to 4 or 5 years but the power plants had to be expanded or replaced to adjust for the new cells, in the end costing well over 10 years of battery bank prices for lead acid would have. Turned out to be overkill on retrofitting but for new plant its ok.

Same applies to boats imo, when it takes decades to recover sunk cost it is not that good of a deal. I prefer to let early adopters take it in the shorts.


The sales lady for the battery manufacturer was a pretty lady, sure that had nothing to do with spending millions on the batteries though, remember sitting in class asking "but what about that charge constant chart and loading of the rectifiers" got a dirty look.....
__________________
Gary
78' Catalina 30 #1179
www.svknotaclew.wordpress.com

Last edited by The Garbone; 06-05-2016 at 01:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 108.31.90.116
Old 06-05-2016, 01:17 PM
edwardc's Avatar
edwardc edwardc is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Laurel, MD
Posts: 2,509
Thanks: 153
Thanked 595 Times in 388 Posts
Two Gr 31 gels paralleled into a single 194AH bank (per Nigel Caulder), and a U1 gel for starting. Very similar to joe_db's setup.

When charged with the proper profile, and never discharged below 50%, they have about twice the lifetime of AGMs. I got 12 years(!) of service out of the last set, although capacity was definitely degraded in the last year.

Still not quite the bang-per-buck of flooded cells, but close. And beats AGMs easily.


Comparison data from East Penn/Deka
Attached Images
 
__________________
@(^.^)@ Ed
1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
with rebuilt Atomic-4

Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 132.147.29.249
Old 06-05-2016, 01:33 PM
joe_db's Avatar
joe_db joe_db is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 4,474
Thanks: 49
Thanked 1,026 Times in 721 Posts
Yes - gels can charge faster than wet cells, which is both good and bad. One bad effect is your charging system sees lower internal resistance and a basic charger can overload itself.
AGMs can also charge faster, so you may see the same effect

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Garbone View Post
I work for the phone company and we started putting new gen batteries at all our "critical" locations. You are dead on about the recharge rate as the same amp hours in battery bank required many more rectifiers to feed initially causing very high loads on the power supply and heat failures as well as harness failures etc. Sure the cells last 10 years as apposed to 4 or 5 years but the power plants had to be expanded or replaced to adjust for the new cells, in the end costing well over 10 years of battery bank prices for lead acid would have. Turned out to be overkill on retrofitting but for new plant its ok.

Same applies to boats imo, when it takes decades to recover sunk cost it is not that good of a deal. I prefer to let early adopters take it in the shorts.


The sales lady for the battery manufacturer was a pretty lady, sure that had nothing to do with spending millions on the batteries though, remember sitting in class asking "but what about that charge constant chart and loading of the rectifiers" got a dirty look.....
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 24.145.95.218
Old 06-05-2016, 07:01 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
FWIW, I had occasion to look, up close and personal, at a Duffy electric boat recently. The boat was packed with twelve 6-volt batteries.

Is there an advantage to pairing up 6-volt batteries instead of using the 12-volt alternative?

All were wet cells, BTW. Duffy offers a remarkably expensive "single point" system for topping off the wet cells. They'll sell you that, but don't ask for a compass.

Bill

Last edited by Administrator; 06-05-2016 at 07:03 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 06-05-2016, 07:55 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
Engine start is Gp 24 flooded. House is 2 of Gp 31 flooded. 65A alternator controlled by Balmar (series IV?), feeds to the house bank. A combiner sends charge to the start battery.
The Gp 31s are getting old and tired - probably down to 60 or 70% capacity. I'm thinking of replacing them with 3 of Gp 24 flooded - those Gp 31s are just too heavy!
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 108.90.160.12
Old 06-05-2016, 08:00 PM
The Garbone The Garbone is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Daytona Beach, FL
Posts: 299
Thanks: 15
Thanked 14 Times in 13 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Administrator View Post
FWIW, I had occasion to look, up close and personal, at a Duffy electric boat recently. The boat was packed with twelve 6-volt batteries.

Is there an advantage to pairing up 6-volt batteries instead of using the 12-volt alternative?

All were wet cells, BTW. Duffy offers a remarkably expensive "single point" system for topping off the wet cells. They'll sell you that, but don't ask for a compass.

Bill
I think it is just to get a few more amp hours out of the space as there are fewer plates (cells) in a 6volt and they can make the plate thicker and a little harder to kill. My experience with 6 volts is you may get an extra year or two out of a string before they go bad.
__________________
Gary
78' Catalina 30 #1179
www.svknotaclew.wordpress.com
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to The Garbone For This Useful Post:
Administrator (06-05-2016), sastanley (06-07-2016)
  #15   IP: 73.255.216.151
Old 06-05-2016, 08:02 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
Bill, I always figured that weight and size were the issue with 6 volt vs 12 volt.

I use the Trojan T 105 6 volts. I had two L-16 (I think) 6 volts batteries. They were tall and 125 pounds a piece. Called traction batteries.

I have also seen batteries where you have each cell removable. I have seen one boat that had Rolls batteries t hat were this way.

Ever see the ads in the magazines? You buy them by the 2 volt cell.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to romantic comedy For This Useful Post:
Administrator (06-05-2016)
  #16   IP: 24.145.95.218
Old 06-05-2016, 08:33 PM
Administrator's Avatar
Administrator Administrator is offline
MMI Webmaster
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Chestertown, MD (Langford Creek)
Posts: 2,198
Thanks: 1,335
Thanked 365 Times in 182 Posts
RC:

I think these batteries were Trojans.

Bill
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 06-07-2016, 11:34 AM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Just to add more data to the thread, I am running two flooded Gr29's (which just fit where I put the new trays, Gr31s have the same footprint but are taller), paralleled like Ed & Joe for 230 Ah. And a single Gr24 start battery, which I finally had to replace as the one in this pic came with the boat.

The only thing I am really running electrically is charging devices..all lights on the boat are LED except the steaming light. I can barely get the Amp gauge on the electrical panel to move with all lights turned on.

I've since cleaned this installation up a little and finished painting the fiberglass work. The white cable is RG-8 for the VHF...I rerouted this around the other side of the boat last spring, so it is cleared out too. I have two small (5w & 3.2w) solar panels..one connected to each "bank" with dedicated cheap regulators & added boots to the third battery too.

__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 06-07-2016 at 11:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 76.71.52.210
Old 06-07-2016, 08:30 PM
gregsails's Avatar
gregsails gregsails is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Sarnia, Ontario
Posts: 95
Thanks: 4
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Shawn, I'm trying to visualize where on your C30 you relocated those batteries to? Did you get rid of something ?
Greg
Reply With Quote
  #19   IP: 71.178.85.60
Old 06-07-2016, 11:44 PM
sastanley's Avatar
sastanley sastanley is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Solomons, MD
Posts: 7,016
Thanks: 1,134
Thanked 600 Times in 442 Posts
Greg, Those are located in the stbd settee, just forward of the chart table. I moved the water tank as far forward as possible to be able to still allow the "seat boards/bilge boards" or whatever they are called to sit flat. That wood in the extreme right of the pic is the forward edge of the chart table looking down.

This adjustment solved the port list problem the older C-30's have with the batteries and all the furniture to port..the boat sits level now! However, this did require a long run of thick cable from the batteries & battery switch around the quarter berth & galley to the engine..so long that I really need to upgrade from 4# to maybe even 1# due to voltage loss..at least on the engine/battery/starter circuit. I occasionally blow the 100 Amp main circuit breaker on long crank events (discussed elsewhere in this forum).

I also re-wired the boat to a Catalina 42 12-volt panel I found on eBay (thanks Neil!) that is installed in the chart table during this transition. I STILL have the old 6-switch panel up aft in the galley..it still powers the running lights, which I have not found an elegant way to re-wire without lots of hole drilling, yet.
__________________
-Shawn
"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif

Last edited by sastanley; 06-07-2016 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post:
gregsails (06-09-2016)
  #20   IP: 71.118.13.238
Old 06-08-2016, 06:01 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Grove, Oklahoma
Posts: 5,035
Thanks: 711
Thanked 1,289 Times in 839 Posts
Romantic, I have been eyeballing the L-16 due to its capacity vs floor space. Were the ones you used "deep cycle" or std type? Did they seem to get the same life as the 105's?
I get my 105's for free from a neighbor, however the extra capacity of the L-16intrigues me and may be worth the cost.
I have seen them called "Sweeper" batteries as well.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 73.255.216.151
Old 06-08-2016, 08:20 PM
romantic comedy's Avatar
romantic comedy romantic comedy is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 1,912
Thanks: 13
Thanked 118 Times in 100 Posts
Dave,

I got a great discount from West marine in 2000. The batteries are still listed in their catalog. ( At least until 2012, which is the catalog I have in my hand.)

They are in their Seavolt line and are called Industrial deep cycle. They may also be called Traction Batteries.

My experience was not a good indicator of the batteries potential. I made a great battery box and was happy to have 370 ah. I have a balmer 100 amp alternator and an ARS 3 regulator. Also have a Statpower 20 amp smart charger. My cruising was limited to just weekend over nights or two nights. This was only for one season, and my needs were simple.

I had a back injury and was out of commission for a few years. The boat did not leave the dock for at least 2 or maybe 3 years. It sat there and the batteries were hooked to the Statpower 20.

One day I found the batteries had no water. This happened fairly quickly, in weeks or a month. The charger had over charged them and the water boiled away. I think it is Hanley that has cautioned people against this situation, with using the charger at the dock.

I did not even fool with the batteries, I just removed them. They are still sitting outside, ready for when I need a 113 pound weight.

I have 2 T-105s in the boat now. The back is pretty good these days, and I hope to do some long distance cruising soon.

I have had thoughts of getting L-16 again, but because they are so heavy, and my back is not what it used to be, I will stay with the 105s, but will add two more if I go cruising. No matter how I plan, I never know when I will have to move the batteries. A line to the boom was very helpful, since they were under the companionway ladder.

Bottom line is that I would recommend them. I have always been confused as to why they are not more popular.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
AGM batteries for Pearson 36 DCHunt Electrical 26 04-20-2016 08:25 PM
Batteries 12V vs 6V Crash Electrical 18 10-30-2011 01:32 AM
Charging Batteries with Generator ArtJ Electrical 8 03-23-2010 09:08 AM
Batteries going dead??? trouble shooting help needed laneo Electrical 9 08-30-2009 07:51 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:48 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved