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  #1   IP: 72.34.66.210
Old 12-18-2013, 02:49 AM
69reneb 69reneb is offline
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Dead Engine. Frozen. Where to Start?

Just purchased a Coronado 30 with a seized Atomic 4. See pictures. PO did not relay any info on how it died.

I pulled the plugs and their is some rust. Pulled the dipstick and oil is black, but at proper level and no signs of water.

It wont turn over with the starter and I tried to manually turn it over with the flywheel and it wont budge. Tried oil and acetone in the cylinders to free it up. Still wont budge.

I saw on this site many people fixing a frozen engine, but not much details on where to start.

There is an atomic 4 engine for sale nearby for $900 and it is running and has a lot of new parts and rebuilt carb. May just purchase that one and swap it out, and sell the original. In which case, need instructions on best way to dismantle and remove the engine.

I hope to post what help I get and finish the story for others to use. Appreciate any help.
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Last edited by 69reneb; 12-20-2013 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 09:03 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up Welcome future A-4 mechanic

69reneb, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!

How is your access to the starter area? If you can get the starter out and work with the flywheel you can get some real leverage for breaking it loose. My engine was frozen too when I bought it and it is still running today 29 years later now~all original except one exhaust valve! It is well worth spending a bit of time as once freed up the engine may just be fine, I have seen many a resurrection with these beasties.

It is worth making access ports to the engine that you can work "through". Are there any in your Coronado yet?

The carb looks really bad but is nothing to worry about yet.

Get the manual and learn how to reduce your pics to the 600 pixel range for our viewing.

Good luck, Dave Neptune
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:05 AM
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Dave has more adventure in his heart than me.

From the looks of the pictures I'd pick up the running A-4 (see comments below). It may need some repairs itself but you'll have a better start point. I would not consider selling the seized engine but rather scavenge the useable parts off of it. If the manifold holds pressure you'll have a spare. Same with things like the raw water pump, starter, carburetor looks doubtful, distributor, reversing gear, head, valves, springs and related parts, etc. Lots of potentially good parts that may come in handy later on. The value of the parts will exceed what you may get for a seized engine by far. And who knows, the seized engine may be resurrected as Dave suggests. If it is you'll either have a running spare or something more valuable to sell.

About that $900 running engine, at that price I'd require a running demonstration and a complete cooling system pressure test. Without both the price drops in half. I'm a cheap S.O.B. Shake my hand on a deal and it's good as gold but you'd better count your fingers.

By the way, what year is your Coronado? Trim tab??
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-18-2013 at 11:02 AM.
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Old 12-18-2013, 10:52 AM
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Neil is right. I sold a running engine for $200 once (half price for a kid). Spend a little time futzing with that flywheel (load the cylinders with Mystery Oil); and watch those fingers. Change the engine oil asap.
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Old 12-18-2013, 11:52 AM
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frozen engine

Well, I'll mostly defer to more experienced hands here, but ....

Last winter I did free up a frozen engine by complete dis-assembly. It is not back together yet.

I think the first question is, are you someone who would enjoy the project of engine rebuilding, or do you want to get back on the water with the least fuss?
If the latter, buy the running engine. Low ball offer and wait for a response.

If you want to get your old one running, then it is likely an involved project. If there is very light rust on the cylinders, then you MIGHT get it freed up by using a pry bar on the flywheel teeth through the starter hole. Remove starter and alternator. On most boats I don't think there is enough room to work the pry bar effectively, so its likely that at the very least the engine has to be moved forward to where there is more room. If you get it free, then it MAY run okay, but I would not be confident in long term reliability.

If you can't free it up, you need to remove head, oil pan and crank, then use a 2x4 inserted in cylinder and judicious application of a hammer to drive the pistons out. This requires removal of engine from boat and dis-assembly.
The amateur mechanic in me says that any time the engine has frozen, then the cylinders should be honed, the rings replaced and the valves ground.
And of course, if you've gone this far there are a few other items you might as well do. See Moyer's book.
Good luck. Cheers, Dave
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Old 12-18-2013, 06:53 PM
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I don't work for the company but Kroil continues to amaze me. The say it creeps - here's an example. I had an old can, propellant gone, so I decanted into a (nalgene?) laboratory squeeze bottle with a feeder tube to bottom. I kept smelling kroil. Damn stuff was creeping up the 4 " tube and out the spout. No idea what kind of voodoo is in there, nor what it would do to a seized block, but if it were my seized block I'd be soaking it in kroil. YMMV
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:10 PM
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I've had my Coronado 30 for just over a year now. Access to the A4 is great! The companionway stairs come off for access to the front, go through the galley cabinet for the carburetor and fuel pump (plus), and from the quarterberth for the water pump and reversing gear (plus).

One of the problems with the Coronado 30 is that the cockpit drains are right above the A4, and the drain itself is not a great design (hard to get a drain to fit in the hole in the fiberglass and hard to get a good seal) - mine had leaked all over the back half of the A4 and rusted it completely. My mechanic (before I found this site) told me the A4 was a goner and we bought a "rebuilt" one to replace it. Now that I know better I would have rather spent the time working the original A4 free (especially now that I know what I'm doing(?) and that the access it very easy).

From your pictures there are a lot of things to "clean-up" like bad spark plug wires (cracked boot on #2), the carb and fuel pump, and a few other things like blower ducting (not original as shown) - nothing too difficult. Have you checked if the prop/shaft spin in neutral? Are you sure it's in neutral? You can grab the shifter from quarterberth to shift it into neutral and grasp the shaft from the same position and give it a spin. I had a bad cutlass and gland that made it hard to turn in neutral when I got the boat.

What year is your Coronado 30? Hull number? I'm always on the lookout for them as there don't seem to be as many around as I would have thought.
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:14 PM
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Uh, oh.

I can see this thread drifting off into a discussion of convex versus concave meniscuses (meniscusci?), surface tension (the magic of this stuff), the influence of diameter on whether that fluid goes up the tube (and how far), etc.

But not by me...

Neil?

Bill
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Old 12-18-2013, 08:37 PM
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Oh no, not me. Talk amongst yourselves. Don't forget about the home brew 50-50 mix of ATF and acetone. It's been proven to outperform Kroil significantly.
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-18-2013 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 12-20-2013, 06:11 PM
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Update

its a 1970 Coronado 30' hull number 110. Has a trim tab, which is disconnected. not sure why. Probably stuck!

I'll try to spin the prop shaft. Trying to deal with one problem at a time! The boat was re-fitted in 2004. Nicely done! Just need to get her running.

Just dismantled some of the engine. Down to the head. Working the oil in to try and get the head off to see whats going on in there. I'm thinking that salt water came back in the manifold and that's why she's froze.

If nothing else, its a lot less weight to haul out.

I bought the running engine for $850. It has almost $600 worth of new parts on it. Electric fuel pump, rebuilt carb, new starter solenoid. I wish I could get a running engine for $200. In CA, the unknown rusty wrecks are going for $400.

I agree that parting it out, might be better, and keeping some parts for myself.

Thanks for all the help. Will update as I go.
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Old 12-20-2013, 07:54 PM
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I have freed up engines by using a grease gun. I adapted a grease fitting so i could fill the cylinder with grease.
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:52 PM
69reneb 69reneb is offline
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Questions

I think the ducting was to vent oil fumes out. Its seems like a good idea, but I think the PCV valve would be better option?

Is that a good place to put the negative ground? on the front flywheel cover?

Thanks
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Old 12-20-2013, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69reneb View Post
its a 1970 Coronado 30' hull number 110. Has a trim tab, which is disconnected.
I can't remember the hull numbers I built but it doesn't matter, I didn't start until January 1971. I remember the trim tab though, one of my responsibilities. If my memory serves, the trim tab was controlled by a Morse Red Jacket 64C cable, the same as the engine shifter. I'm somewhat surprised your boat has an Atomic 4 unless it's been repowered. We were using Palmer P-60's in the Coronado 30's.

Have you tried moving the tab with the cable removed?
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Last edited by ndutton; 12-20-2013 at 09:02 PM.
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Old 12-21-2013, 02:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69reneb View Post
I think the ducting was to vent oil fumes out. Its seems like a good idea, but I think the PCV valve would be better option?

Is that a good place to put the negative ground? on the front flywheel cover?

Thanks

You had to mention that didn't you!

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Old 12-21-2013, 05:58 PM
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That is where I have a ground cable, too. BTW, I'm hanging out with that carb throttle bracket.
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Old 12-22-2013, 11:08 AM
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I've got my negative attached to the block on a bolt beneath the water pump, then the instruments connected to the next bolt up on the flywheel housing. Yours looks ok to me, depending on how the rest of your wiring runs.

Wow, hull number 110. I didn't expect a 1970 to get that high. I've got number 37 and I've seen as high as in the 60s for the 1970 and mid-100s in the 1972. I haven't seen much on the production rate or total numbers produced over the 5-year run.

Good luck on the A4. Sounds like you have a good start. Keep us posted!

EDIT: Neil, I think the early Coronado 30s came with an A4 or Palmer - later ones may have been mostly Palmer. Also, the trim tab cable is as you said - mine was rusted solid where it entered the bilge beneath the dinette... had to cut it out with a hack saw from under the galley sink (the only "reasonable" access and not an easy job at all!).
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Last edited by sglazebrook; 12-23-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 01-10-2014, 10:38 PM
69reneb 69reneb is offline
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Update. Dismantled the engine. Tried breaking compound, acetone, and a hammer. Cant get her to spin. Got all my head bolts off, but the head is frozen on. Somebody suggested aluminum wedges to break the head gasket and start the head coming up. I don't see any other way to get the head off.

Will be removing the motor in the next week, and have my replacement motor all tuned up, new impeller, electric fuel pump, and ready to go.

I'm dying to get her running.

Thanks
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Old 01-12-2014, 01:35 AM
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69reb I think I might know your boat. Did you recently pick it up of CL? If so I was hunting about the same time and ended up with a Catalina 30 that seems to have suffered the same fate. My A4 is frozen solid too and I'm praying to the Marvel Mystery Oil+PB Blaster+ATF Gods for the next few days before I throw a Hail Mary pass at the flywheel with this...Name:  phpcSLiXUPM.jpg
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and this....

Name:  phpr7N6PDPM.jpg
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It looks like you're already traveling down the road I most likely will so I'll be curious to see how it goes.
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Old 01-12-2014, 06:05 PM
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Launch,

Don't force it all in one go. wiggle it for hourss if need be. At this point you are probably just saving the core, but you can do a lot of damage yet if you aren't careful.
Nice tool.

Welcome to the forum,

Russ
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Old 01-13-2014, 10:11 AM
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Launchpad...looking good. As Russ said, be careful..I think a wiggle process is much better.

I can see you've already figured out where all the hidden screws are to get the galley out of the way to gain better engine access.

What is that big white fiberglass looking thing next to the engine?

+1 on the welcome.
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Old 01-14-2014, 01:41 AM
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69reneb I don't mean to hijack your thread but maybe we can learn from each other's experiences (mostly my mistakes). I tried using my homemade crankshaft socket (actually version2 made from an impact socket rather than the deep socket I posted earlier) and I did nothing but shear off the roll pin on the crankshaft.Name:  IMG_1661__1389678601_54148.jpg
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I probably should've seen that coming. Plan 'C' called for removing the starter, and tapping on a pry bar set against the teeth of the flywheel which actually worked and didn't chew up the 'wheel! Even after I got her to turn I realized 'diet & exercise' wasn't going to cut it and decided to go in for surgery. I got the head off using the Ikea butter knife (my tools are mostly back in Colorado) just to find all of the valves except one stuck...
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Back to reading forum posts, ordering parts, and working. My version of lather, rinse, repeat. Catch you next week after I figure out how to unstick valves
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Old 01-14-2014, 02:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sastanley View Post
What is that big white fiberglass looking thing next to the engine?
That is Catalina's in house fabricated waterlift. It's a greater volume and lower profile than commercially available products. It is however prone to huff & puff syndrome (flat panel flex) and subsequent cracking along the base. McQ, watch for signs of damage in that area, it is a known problem.
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:54 AM
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Frozen Atomic 4

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
69reneb, first welcome to the MMI Afourian Forum!

How is your access to the starter area? If you can get the starter out and work with the flywheel you can get some real leverage for breaking it loose. My engine was frozen too when I bought it and it is still running today 29 years later now~all original except one exhaust valve! It is well worth spending a bit of time as once freed up the engine may just be fine, I have seen many a resurrection with these beasties.

It is worth making access ports to the engine that you can work "through". Are there any in your Coronado yet?

The carb looks really bad but is nothing to worry about yet.

Get the manual and learn how to reduce your pics to the 600 pixel range for our viewing.

Good luck, Dave Neptune
I agree Dave. Keep your head up everyone. I have a frozen Atomic 4 on my 1977 Catalina 30 "750". It is April 17th and the last time the engine ran was Jan 15th. Time is of the essence here, I believe. About Feb 1, 2016, my engine seal to the prop leaked and the engine got wet, to what level, I am not sure, but there was salt water in the engine. Yesterday, I learned things from this forum that I am going to try out. I put about 4 oz of BP blaster in every cylinder and sprayed around everything including the flywheel at the removed starter. I also put in about 2 quarts of a 50-50 mixture of acetone and ATF until the cylinders were filled. I then loosely placed the spark plugs back on the filled cylinders loosely to not seal the cylinders up and allow for leakage and or rust removal. Also, by doing this, the firing order of the pistons stayed the same. I also called Moyer and ordered a shaft crank. Once the crank comes in about a week, I will remove the plugs, and battery connection and see if I can slowly loosen the motor by moving the crank back and forth and even using a breaker bar for leverage. I will also try to move the flywheel the same way, back and forth easily. If lucky, I wil continue to crank the motor clockwise until it moves easily. It has only been frozen for a couple of months. It can't be that bad with rust. Wish me luck. I have owned the boat since 1998 and have loved the power train. It does slip out of gear when I use too much RPM and see that fix as well as trouble in reverse as well as having to put an extreme amount of pressure to change gears, all of which I can live with. In my Catalina 30, my flywheel housing sits right up against some non structural fiberglass that I will have to rooute out to attach the motor crank. I hope that the shaft is not too fusty and will accept the new motor crank. I will keep you all posted. Thank you for your time and tips. Matt
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Old 04-17-2016, 10:22 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Important

Matt, be sure and work the crank in BOTH DIRECTIONS a LITTLE bit at a time~~NOT ALL AT ONCE. Leave the plugs out as if you get it to crank you don't want to "hydraulic" a cylinder and damage a piston or rod in doing so! Work primarily on the teeth of the flywheel as you will have much more leverage.

FOR ALL, the single most important thing to do when water encroaches the engine and seizes the rings is to free it ASAP, like as soon as it is discovered.

If water is found in the oil and the engine is not seized BEFORE trying to spin or start with the starter SUCK the water out from under the oil and use the oil there to begin the flushing process once the water is sucked out from under.

Dave Neptune
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Old 04-17-2016, 03:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poogs View Post
... I also called Moyer and ordered a shaft crank. ...
Matt,

Be sure you get the right kind of crank; There are two.

One is for rotating the engine in either direction, but NOT for starting it. Thats the one you want. Looks like this:


The other is a starting crank, and it will not turn the engine backwards:
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