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  #26   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 06-16-2010, 12:38 AM
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Clueless on the dock

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Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
Propane is heavier than air (1.5 times as dense).
Also, it is much more volatile than gasoline.
CAUTION ALERT...
Which is exactly why I always ask the smug diesel guy looking down his nose at us gas guys what cooking fuel he has onboard. The vast majority have propane and nary a clue as to its potential for disaster.
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prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
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Old 06-16-2010, 08:18 AM
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Thumbs up Go old-school!

Yup..Hanley I also have the Princess...I bought a couple of burners from some place out in CA (A & T Enterprises maybe??) a few years ago that will burn kerosene or alcohol for my step-dad's Princess on his Tartan.

I haven't had to rebuild mine yet, just a couple of gaskets/seals, & I am burning alcohol. It seems the only real downside to alcohol is that in bright daylight the flame is hard to see. If/when this stove fails I think I am going to the Origo non-pressurized.
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:03 AM
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I have installed a new carb on my late model engine this spring

The chokc is properly set and the engine starts immediately when cold
if priming bulb is pumped (facet pump).

The question is when the engine once warm is shutdown for 30 or minutes
it again requires choke to start without a lot of cranking.

I am wondering if the low speed mixture needs to be richer?

If so, where should this be done?

Thanks

Art
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:16 PM
Wade Rogers Wade Rogers is offline
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Thumbs up Engine Choke

I too have a bit of a choke problem and an engine idle issue: my A4 likes to run with a bit of choke until she's fully warmed up, then I can push the choke all the way in. She's fresh water cooled and typically runs at about 140 degrees and it takes about 10 minutes to get to that setting before I can push the choke all the way in.
Another issue I have is that it idles at around 1500 rpm's and when I try to adjust the idle speed down, the engine dies. I've not messed with the mixture screw (hard to get to it) but think that might be the problem. The engine has had some recent work done to it including new points/plugs/condenser/plug wires/rotor cap/rotor so I know the ignition system is in good shape.
I'm going to try to adjust the mixter screw this weekend but any tips the forum can give me would be appreciated...
Wade
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  #30   IP: 173.166.26.245
Old 07-14-2010, 03:41 PM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Welcome to the forum, Wade. The initial setting on the idle adjustment screw should be 1 1/2 turns out from seat position. On this carb turning the screw in(clockwise) makes the mixture richer. Regarding the ignition work, don't take anything for granted - if you stick around this forum you'll see what I mean. If you don't already have one, get your personal copy of the Moyer Marine Overhaul and Repair Manual. All the best, Hanley
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  #31   IP: 158.145.240.100
Old 07-14-2010, 07:24 PM
Wade Rogers Wade Rogers is offline
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Hanley,
Thnx for the info at the idle mixter setting. I think I have an original copy of the owners manual that came w/ the A4 (yes, it's 34 years old which shows just how much care has gone into this engine) but I'll look into the Moyer Marine Overhaul and Repair Manual....
Wade
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  #32   IP: 71.252.8.223
Old 07-14-2010, 11:02 PM
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Wade, If you think it is the idle mixture screw....screw it all the way in (count while doing so!!) to see how far you go in. Then unscrew it 1 & 1/2 turns to the "base" setting as Hanley recommended and see what you get. You can always at least get back to where you are now if you know where you started.

A new trick I learned recently from this forum (duh, it is obvious once you think about it) is to set the idle screw mixture adjustment, with the engine running at idle IN GEAR at the dock....I'd previously set mine in neutral..I realize now that is pretty pointless.

I too have the original manual that came with the boat...it is useless compared to the Moyer Overhaul & Maintenance Manual.

Welcome!
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

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Last edited by sastanley; 07-14-2010 at 11:04 PM.
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  #33   IP: 142.68.249.180
Old 07-15-2010, 05:48 AM
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About the one-and-a-half turn initial setting, see Don's comment here:
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...ial#post11838)
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  #34   IP: 173.166.26.245
Old 07-15-2010, 07:01 AM
hanleyclifford hanleyclifford is offline
 
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Smile

Rigspelt - About the 1 1/2 turn baseline; now that I have my oxygen sensor and air/fuel ratio gauge it is easy to adjust. I agree that 1 1/2 is too lean, but it does give me a place to start and then just "dial it in"! Regards, Hanley
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:42 PM
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It has been a while since I stopped in, but I now have the "run only with full choke" problem that started with no obvious event associated with why it started. I believe my A-4 is a 70s vintage, installed in a 1966 Allied Seabreeze that lives in Ipswich, MA. It has run fine since launch the end of June with only 2 issues. Soon after launch it decided that it would only run for a few seconds (maybe 10 or so) after it started. Ended up taking the cab apart to check for interference with the float - never really found anything, but once reassembled and reinstalled, engine ran like a champ, like it did before launch. Immediate startup with no choke needed to start. The second incident was also fuel starvation after a couple of day sails, this time needing a new fuel filter (the first after the spring change) from the supply of 6-8 I now keep aboard after the appearance of E-10.

Yesterday, it just died, and after another new filter, would only run with full choke. Had to change the plugs to get back, because they carboned up so badly with the full choke. Now the carb is in the basement, in pieces with no obvious reason for the problem. I do need a new bowl gasket, but I think I inflicted that taking the carb apart.

Any ideas? The engine was run a couple of hours before launch, and maybe 12 since launch. The carb is a rebuilt one from MMI, installed 3-4 years ago. This was the first winter that it stayed on the engine. I got into the practice of bring it home in the winter as a way to keep its case iron predecessor from clogging itself up with fine rust.

Thanks.

Mark
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  #36   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 08-08-2012, 11:37 AM
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The symptoms, plus the frequent changing of filters, suggests that you have a lot of crud in your fuel system & tank. The "only runs with choke" problem is usually caused by a tiny bit of crud stuck in one of the jets, making the carb run too lean. Probably falls out when you drain and inspect the carb, leaving no evidence.

I would suggest draining and inspecting the fuel tank, flushing or replacing the fuel lines, and cleaning and rebuilding the carb one more time. Putting dirty fuel through a clean carb can quickly clog it up.

The A4 is pretty tolerant of fuel variations, but it must be scrupulously clean.
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Old 08-08-2012, 02:47 PM
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Lightbulb

mprestero...I agree with Ed..I'd clean the carb and then find an alternate fuel source..maybe an outboard tank, known to be clean, and with fresh fuel, and then see how it runs..if it does not stall out, I'd find out where the crud is coming from.
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"Twice Around" - '77 Catalina 30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold.
She is even happier with fresh paint on the topsides!

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  #38   IP: 24.61.158.69
Old 08-09-2012, 09:56 AM
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I continued my exploring yesterday after I couldn't get the engine to start at all yesterday. I took the carb apart to check the main jet for stuff that didn't belong there and that might be leaning out the carb output. No loose debris, but I found that there were three tiny holes in a line along the length of the jet, which looked like they belonged there, and were completely plugged with some white powdery substance. Wiped the outer surface of the jet clean, blew air on the hole until they looked open, and ran a pipe cleaner through the jet to finish the job. Put it back together and re-installing this morning.

Is the condition the holes were in a possible source of my problem?

Thanks.

Mark
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Old 08-09-2012, 10:04 AM
mprestero mprestero is offline
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I just realized that I never sent a reply that I typed up yesterday.

First - Thanks to Ed and Shawn for replying and turning on a light bulb in things to consider. It made me realize that the fuel system between the filter and the carb - the hose to the fuel pump, the Facet pump and the line from it to the carb never saw any change-out, inspection or cleaning after the E10 introduction. I also found that MMI has a filter setup that would live between the fuel pump and the carb. It seem that might be an answer. I'm replacing the main filter to fuel pump hose, too.
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  #40   IP: 24.19.102.93
Old 05-24-2013, 10:28 AM
bigoledave bigoledave is offline
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needs choke fix

I had the same problem off and on..on my carb, I finally fixed it by taking the top half of the carb off, removing the venturi bore tube and idle jet screw and using spray injector cleaner with a thin tube sprayer output...spraying and cleaning out the idle jet passage to the main bore, You should see a LOT of spray coming out in to the main bore...not a dribble!!

Dave
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  #41   IP: 99.240.133.157
Old 07-21-2018, 02:22 PM
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engine keeps stalling

Hi I'm new to this forum. I have a 1976 C&C 30 with a later model A4.
I continue to have periodic issues with my engine stalling when I push the choke in after warming up the engine for 10 minutes. I've had my mechanic swap out carbs and said it's not the carb so he re-built the fuel pump and switched over to electronic ignition system. The fuel has been checked on separate occasions with a remote tank and the fuel/air mixture has been optimized. Last week the engine ran solid for a one week trip and I motored for 12 hours throughout the trip without any issues. I returned to my home dock and it's acting up again. The next step is to have the carb re-built. Every time I move from idle and increase the throttle the engine want's to stall. It's worse when I put it in gear. I'm still perplexed as to what is causing this issue and so is my mechanic. The next test they will run is to check if the cam is worn for the fuel pump and if so will convert over to an electric fuel pump. When reading the various posts it seems that the most common issue is a clogged main jet on the carb but this was already ruled out. Are there any other suggestions? Thank you
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  #42   IP: 72.194.219.196
Old 07-21-2018, 05:12 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Is the advance and timing correct?

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  #43   IP: 207.118.20.35
Old 07-21-2018, 10:21 PM
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Welcome to the forum, you've come to the right place. With this forum and Moyer Marine's manual and videos, you will learn a lot, as I did. The guys here are good. Probably better than your mechanic, with all due respect.
If your fuel/air mixture is in fact optimized, the engine would run without choke soon after starting. It also wouldn't stall above idle. Your engine is running too lean, and closing the choke richens it. It won't run above idle because the choke is closed. Checking for a worn cam to the rebuilt mechanical fuel pump indicates to me that your mechanic is grasping at straws here. Although electronic ignition is good, it won't solve fuel/air issues. Nor does an electric fuel pump.The problem is in the carb, usually. If it isn't the carb, why is it being rebuilt? Assuming timing and advance are good, running lean means either too much air or too little fuel. Too much air means an air leak, which could be caused by inadequate seal at the carburetor gaskets, or at the scavenger tube, or the flame arrestor o-ring. It could be the idle mixture screw is turned too far out, letting in too much air. It should be out 1 turn from the seat, maybe 1 and 1/2. The only way to rule out a clogged main jet is to remove it, hold it up to the light and look through it, and ream it out with a thin wire. Blasting carburetor cleaner through it may not be enough. The same goes for the other jets and orifices in the carb. You just completed 12 hours of running well, I assume with your regular tank. That gave plenty of time for crud to clog the filters, then work it's way into the carb, even with clean fuel in a remote tank.You did not mention changing filters. A fuel pressure gauge just before the carb would help here. I also can recommend an adjustable main jet, which should be turned out from the seat 1 and 1/2, or 2 turns. Turning it out lets in more fuel, making it richer. If you use non-ethanol gas with MMO added, it keeps your mechanical fuel pump problem free, in my experience.
Don't despair, and keep plugging away at understanding your engine, and you'll be fine. Happy sailing!
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  #44   IP: 99.240.133.157
Old 07-22-2018, 09:31 AM
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clogged carb jets

Thank you for your reply, this is very helpful and informative. I also believe we are grasping with respect to the cam. I've always felt it's been the carb which is why I just decided to have it re-built after trying everything else. What doesn't make sense is that the carbs were swapped and the problem still existing which is why the fuel pump was re-built. I guess it's possible that both carbs could have had clogged jets.
You bring up a good point with respect to the filters after running the engine so long. Which filters specifically should I be looking for? Can they be cleaned or should I be replacing them?
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Old 07-22-2018, 11:25 AM
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Follow the fuel line from the tank to the carb. Any filters in that line should be replaced. There are very few filters that can be cleaned.
If the fuel filter(s) are so clogged the fuel can't pass thru them, that could very well be the cause of the carb running lean.
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  #46   IP: 199.115.243.165
Old 07-22-2018, 05:41 PM
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Agree with the boyz that you should verify timing and carb.
A clean carb with proper mixture (and timing) should only require choke for a cold start and just for a short time. (mine about 3-5 sec)

After verifying the timing and fuel, IF the issue persists...
Let's talk about your exhaust system.
Your symptoms could also be pointing to a problem there.
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Old 07-27-2018, 11:33 AM
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engine throttle hesitates

so the saga continues unfortunately. The carb has been re-built and installed and has improved the condition but not completely rectified. Fuel line replaced from the tank to filter to pump. The suspect cause for the choke not working was that an incorrect hose (Compressor hose was used instead of a fuel hose at one time and deteriorated, clogging the carb). New fuel filter installed. Timing and advance confirmed. Used remote tank and ships tank for testing-Ok. Everything worked fine for two hours. Went back out a few hours later and the engine hesitates from low throttle to high throttle when it's in gear. No issues when idling in neutral, throttle picks up with no hesitation. More consistent when in higher throttle but drops when lowering throttle and hesitation appears and engine wants to stall.
Next step is to install an electric fuel pump. Mechanic is lost. Also suggesting to add a lead additive to the fuel. Do any of you add lead or do most of you use MMO? Also need to check if anything is stuck on the prop/shaft so need to go diving. Thanks for all your help with this. Any other suggestions?
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Old 07-27-2018, 02:40 PM
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Let's clarify what it means to verify timing and advance. Did you remove the breaker plate from the distributor, inspect the advance mechanism to see if it moved freely, remove rust and oil it? When it was running ok under load, did you turn the distributor back and forth to see if it ran at higher rpm? If you had a fuel pressure gauge, you could see if pressure went down under load when it hesitates at low rpm. A vacuum gauge is also helpful when that happens. I would be surprised if an electric fuel pump solves the problem, when it was running ok for two hours with a mechanical one. Despite all you have done to clean the fuel system, your symptom of stalling at low rpm in gear still indicates a fuel restriction to me. Junk in the idle jet caused that symptom for me. Did you try enriching the mixture by turning in the idle screw a bit? I doubt if you picked up stuff on your prop shaft last time you went out. This problem has been happening for a while. I'm still not sure if you are stalling when increasing the throttle or decreasing it. Be sure to change one thing at a time, so you can learn what the problem was. I don't use lead additive, just MMO. You say you installed one new fuel filter. I have three: one Racor water separator filter, one inline fuel filter between the Racor and the mechanical fuel pump, and one inline filter between the pump and the fuel pressure gauge. My mechanical pump, which I have heard creates more suction than an electric one, seems to be able to handle all three filters. I hope your basic issue isn't so much crud in the boat's tank that two hours of running clogs filters. If you were able to run well for two hours, you are not far from success. Good Luck!
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  #49   IP: 72.194.219.196
Old 07-27-2018, 03:08 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sange View Post
when it's in gear. No issues when idling in neutral, throttle picks up with no hesitation. More consistent when in higher throttle but drops when lowering throttle and hesitation appears and engine wants to stall.
Hesitation is a fuel starvation problem. You have an air leak or a blockage in the fuel system somewhere or crud in the carb or water in the fuel.
As a guess have you confirmed that the gas in the ship's tank is not contaminated? Pump some gas into a clear glass jar and hold it up to the light.
A fuel pressure gauge before the carburetor would sort this out real quick.

TRUE GRIT
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  #50   IP: 71.222.3.150
Old 07-28-2018, 11:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sange View Post
...Mechanic is lost. Also suggesting to add a lead additive to the fuel.
That suggestion alone makes me doubt your "mechanic".
Adding lead will do about as much good as hiring a Voodoo Doctor to dance around your boat sprinkling chicken blood everywhere.

• Can you tell us the procedure you did to check the timing?
• Are you certain your plug wires are in the correct firing order?
• Have you looked at your plugs to see their condition?
• When you re-built the carb, did you use a new gasket or the old one?


As John and others have said, a fuel pressure gauge would be very valuable in your diagnosis and eliminate a lot of the guessing.

Also, I'm still wondering if you have an exhaust system issue...
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