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  #26   IP: 206.125.176.3
Old 10-06-2010, 09:37 AM
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blue eyes, I would definitely do it with the engine running..if you only use the starter the lack of exhaust pressure would allow water to back in to the engine thru the exhaust...the very reason everyone cautions about closing your intake if you have starting problems..
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  #27   IP: 174.119.68.97
Old 10-24-2010, 10:15 AM
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help

I followed the winter lay up directions from chapter 9 of the Moyer A4 book and the first several steps went. I changed the oil, drew antifreeze through the intake. Realized that I had the late model engine and removed the thermostat and did it again. I first forgot to pinch off the by-pass (which may have caused the problem), then realized the mistake and ran some more through with the bypass pinched off. Up until this point, everything worked as planned.

I then took out the spark plugs, sprayed some mystery oil in each hole and tried to start it again. I tried to start is again without the plugs in and it just gave a higher pitch whine, like a car started when it won't turn over. I tried again with the plugs in with a similar result. Each time, I only tried in for 10-15 sec's. I did notice that the intake did take on more fluid and I started one last time with the intake hose out of the antifreeze. The engine would not start. I pulled the plugs on last time and am worried that I may have had a back up of liquid in the system. The plugs did seem to have a faint antifreeze smell.

At this point, I am worried that I may have backed up water or antifreeze into the engine and would like to know how to trouble shoot this. I checked the oil and there seems to be no sign of water so far, but the engine has not run since the last few steps.

As you may have guessed, this is my first season with a boat and a A4. The thing worked like a dream all season and I want to make sure it stays that way. If you have any ideas of how to check the engine to ensure there is no water/antifreeze in the engine, I am all ears!

Thanks!
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Old 11-04-2010, 10:47 AM
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a few comments

re. the above -- there may be alternatives [look in the cylinders if possible or suction them out carefully to see if there's h2o or antifreeze in them?] but at the end of the day -- if it were i, i'd start again and make sure the engine starts and runs normally if i had any doubts -- be sure to have a bucket of water there for cooling if it does run...then i'd just go thru the whole winterization procedure all over again -- all part of the learning process -- the stories i could tell you bout my first yr with the a4!

a few other comments / things i've learned / mods i've made on winterization:

1. last year i changed the oil a few weeks before winter shut down -- refilling with about 1/2 30 wt and the other 1/2 mmo -- then ran the engine gently on the final outings [all in the canal or river here] -- then shut dwon for the winter with that blend still in and changed it to the recommended 30 wt + 1 qt mmo after spring launch --

2. re. antifreeze -- i use the green stuff cuz it has lots of antirust compounds in it [which are not in the pink]...

the results this year were really great -- a4 ran better than ever -- and i really didn't do much else to it -- so i think....

seeing as it sits 5-6 months with no use to speak of -- sitting bathed [marinating?] in mmo [block, etc] and anti-rust [cooling system, etc.] can't "hoit" and may even make up for the summertime abuse...

and finally a few questions:

i know the usual flush liquid is muriatic acid or vinegar...but what about using c.l.r. / lime-away or the various auto-store flush preparations made for auto cooling systems? would love to hear from don on this or anyone who has tried these....
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  #29   IP: 71.168.64.77
Old 11-04-2010, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nreeves View Post
I followed the winter lay up directions from chapter 9 of the Moyer A4 book and the first several steps went. I changed the oil, drew antifreeze through the intake. Realized that I had the late model engine and removed the thermostat and did it again. I first forgot to pinch off the by-pass (which may have caused the problem), then realized the mistake and ran some more through with the bypass pinched off. Up until this point, everything worked as planned.

I then took out the spark plugs, sprayed some mystery oil in each hole and tried to start it again. I tried to start is again without the plugs in and it just gave a higher pitch whine, like a car started when it won't turn over. I tried again with the plugs in with a similar result. Each time, I only tried in for 10-15 sec's. I did notice that the intake did take on more fluid and I started one last time with the intake hose out of the antifreeze. The engine would not start. I pulled the plugs on last time and am worried that I may have had a back up of liquid in the system. The plugs did seem to have a faint antifreeze smell.

At this point, I am worried that I may have backed up water or antifreeze into the engine and would like to know how to trouble shoot this. I checked the oil and there seems to be no sign of water so far, but the engine has not run since the last few steps.

As you may have guessed, this is my first season with a boat and a A4. The thing worked like a dream all season and I want to make sure it stays that way. If you have any ideas of how to check the engine to ensure there is no water/antifreeze in the engine, I am all ears!

Thanks!
I would have cleaned and dried the plugs or swap in another set of plugs.
Check that you still have spark.

Unless you forced water into the engine via a garden hose, a definite no no,
you shouldn't have caused water to enter the engine. Doing it via a
bucket and letting the pump pull its own water / antifreeze is the correct
approach.
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  #30   IP: 24.193.42.223
Old 12-09-2010, 03:39 PM
theredboat theredboat is offline
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Starting on the hard

I took my boat out thinking I was going to have it back in before winter, but now I need to winterize it on the hard. What's the best method to do that? I've read through this thread and saw that some recommend cranking on the starter with the plugs out to get the antifreeze through. I don't have a thermostat so I'm not worried about having to to warm up the engine. But I dont want water getting back in to block through the exhaust. Please advise!
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  #31   IP: 128.183.140.38
Old 12-09-2010, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theredboat View Post
I took my boat out thinking I was going to have it back in before winter, but now I need to winterize it on the hard. What's the best method to do that? I've read through this thread and saw that some recommend cranking on the starter with the plugs out to get the antifreeze through. I don't have a thermostat so I'm not worried about having to to warm up the engine. But I dont want water getting back in to block through the exhaust. Please advise!
Ignoring any fuel or oil prep with MMO, here's what I would do:

1: Remove the thermostat (I know, you don't have one), replace the housing, and clamp off the bypass line. This will insure that water gets flushed out of the block.

2: Disconnect the raw water intake hose from the through-hull and lead it into bucket of antifreeze.

3: Be SURE you're in neutral! The cutlass bearing needs water to cool and lube it! Secure the prop with a rag or line so it won't rotate from any residual drag from the transmission.

4: Run the engine just long enough to get pink antifreeze out of the exhaust, adding to the bucket as needed until this happens.

5: Kill the engine, remove the plugs, put a few squirts of MMO in each cylinder (as described elsewhere) and use the starter to turn it over a rev or two to distribute the MMO.

All in all, pretty similar to what you would do in the water. The key points
are to remove the thermostat and imobilize the prop.
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  #32   IP: 71.179.184.118
Old 10-28-2011, 10:49 AM
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A few questions on first winterization

I have a 1976 P30 /salt water cooled/ electric fuel pump / oil safety switch / fuel tank already filled up and additives ok / in the water on the Magothy river (mid-Maryland-Chesapeake Bay).

This forum talked me through resolving my fuel related shutdown earlier this year and hopefully I can get some more advice on my first winterizing. I’ve read Don’s instructions and lots of threads and here is how I intend to seduce her:
1. Warm her up, drain oil using the handy oil changer recommended elsewhere on this forum.
2. Add a quart of MMO thru filler cap.
3. Attach a washing machine hose to the “T” fitting on water inlet line.
4. Start engine and run 5 gallons of fresh water out of a bucket and through engine, then a bit extra to clear the exhaust system.
5. Do my darndest to locate the freeze plugs, remove any that I can, clean out the holes with a wire bush and replace.
This part kinda scares me. To be honest, relationship with my new mistress has gotten off to a rocky start as I have not been able to spend much time with her. I did finally get down to see her the other night and hung upside down in the dark poking around (Note: mistress analogy ends here) but am not sure that I ever found her drain plugs. I know that they aren’t the original shiny brass 2 inchers so someone must have replaced them over the last 35 years. Every other mechanical fastener that I have needed to loosen on this boat has been seized tight so I don’t want to strip any threads/screw up anything if I don’t need to.

Question 1: If I eventually get antifreeze out the exhaust after running with thermostat both open and closed, how critical is removing the drain plugs?

6. Fill bucket with antifreeze (I got some blue stuff at WM that is RV/non toxic but supposedly has some rust prohibitors in it) and run engine till it exhausts.
7. Remove thermostat, pinch hose with griplocks over wood strips and run engine again. Drain Racor bow. Drain carb bowl.

Question2: Is this just removing the bolt on the bottom of carb bowl and draining any fuel?

8. Reattach & tighten bowl then jump fuel pump to refill the carb.

Question3: Do I just remove the wires from the oil safety switch and touch them against each other?

9. Remove spark plugs (pray I don’t strip anything)/squirt MMO toward engine center/replace/then crank for a few seconds.
10. Spark plugs back in, hoses reconnected. Mix dark rum with ginger beer and a dash of bitters. Eyes on mistress, celebrate seduction.

Note: I plan on tackling the electrical system at a later date after I find my old Neilson album and figure out what a point is.

Sorry for the lengthy post but hanks in advance for any help.
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  #33   IP: 155.104.37.18
Old 10-28-2011, 01:24 PM
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I also have a P30, and I'm in the Rhode River, middle Bay. My previous owner says that as the final step, he'd start the engine and spray MMO fogging oil into the flame arrester/intake until the engine stalls.

Good? Bad? Opinions?
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  #34   IP: 71.179.184.118
Old 10-28-2011, 01:50 PM
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Access to drain plugs on your P30

Ajax, in years past, have you been removing your drain plugs? Based on whatever tilt they gave our engines, do you remember which ones that I should spend most of my time/energy on?
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  #35   IP: 155.104.37.18
Old 10-28-2011, 01:52 PM
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This is my first winter, so no I don't. I'm in the same boat (literally and figuratively) as you are.

I'm racing the boat until November 20th, so that'll be the earliest that I winterize, unless the threat of a severe freeze comes before then. I plan on crawling into the engine space and investigating all of this before then.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:14 PM
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Racing your P30

Ajax, Good luck with the racing! I love the way the P30 sails, our first boat was a brand new First 29 and yet I swear this new girl is faster on all points except maybe hard on the wind. Let me know how you do.

Off topic: she has a newly installed furler and yet came with a full suite of North hank on headsails (spinnaker, 145, 125 and a light genny that I left on the boat) If you are interested in any (or a spare pole), PM or email me.
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  #37   IP: 71.183.233.249
Old 10-28-2011, 05:08 PM
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The block drain plugs are on the starboard side of the motor. Note that we are talking about 1/8" NPT drain plugs, which are not "freeze plugs". "Freeze plugs" are pressed into the block and only removed during an overhaul. The forward drain plug is behind the starter. It's possible to get to it without removing the starter, but it isn't easy. The aft plug should have a pipe nipple in it that extends out past the accessory drive. Hopefully, it won't break off when you try to remove the end cap. I've worked on two A4s now, one had a brass extension that opened easily, the other had an iron/steel extension that broke off right at the block when I tried to open it.

Access to the starboard side of the A4 is really poor in a P30, so I'd probably leave the plugs in and just run more antifreeze through it.
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  #38   IP: 108.15.39.241
Old 10-28-2011, 08:28 PM
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mild heresy

I have had a P30 for 2 winters so far. The first winter I followed the (rather lengthy) winterization procedure as well as I could. It took me about 5 hours but that included help from my 9 year old son. I'm pretty sure I was the first person to take out the drain plugs in a while. I got all of them out and it wasn't too hard, but I couldn't verify unobstructed flow from the starboard side. Actually I was thrilled to get the aft one back in again. As I was explaining to my son how "fogging oil" gets its name, we happened to poke our heads above deck and saw that there was indeed a very thick petroleum fog rolling across the creek. Motor ran fine next spring.

The next year I noticed a check-box on the marina's haul-out form for "engine winterization". I was in a hurry and it was cold, so I thought what the heck. Now, the marina guy is pretty conscientious, but the service costs $100 and at $85/hour I'm pretty sure he didn't have time to pull all of the drain plugs, run it with/without thermostat, lovingly squirt MMF in key spots, etc. Motor ran fine next spring. Just saying.
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  #39   IP: 68.173.38.216
Old 10-29-2011, 12:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ajax View Post
I also have a P30, and I'm in the Rhode River, middle Bay. My previous owner says that as the final step, he'd start the engine and spray MMO fogging oil into the flame arrester/intake until the engine stalls.

Good? Bad? Opinions?
Actually this sounds like a pretty good idea; coat the air intake side with a light coating of lightweight oil like MMO or fogging oil. I've never used this as a last step before. I'm not sure that I will do it though as it does not seem to be needed, in my experience.

I'm sure that Loki9 is right and the drain plugs you want to remove are the block drain plugs, not the 'freeze plugs' which are different. It is optimal to be able to drain the block using these plugs if you are able to clear out any crud that may have built up in there. I'll admit that I don't always do this though as the access is poor on my boat (perhaps to my own detriment). I have become accustomed to draining my raw water pump after winterizing and letting it drain over time. Perhaps this winter I'll find the rear block drain plug on my A4 and try to remove it as well.

What is it with all you new P30 owners? Is Pearson still making them?
We raced against one a few years ago that was usually our nemesis on the race course. Good sailing boats.

I hope to get down the the Chessy soon for one last overnight sail.
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Old 10-30-2011, 09:07 AM
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Sabina was in a heated shed for 6 years , so it's been a while since I winterized. As best I can remember , I did the following on the hard :

Briefly ran engine , all hoses attached , to belch raw water out of system

Disconnected intake at thru hull and discharge at standpipe , inserted both into bucket of antifreeze

Ran engine until antifreeze in bucket was steamy hot and temp gauge told me that operating temp was reached

Fogged with MMO at spark arrester

Shut down , MMO injected thru spark plug holes

Easy procedure , no drain plugs to fight with , block full of antifreeze until spring start up.

Anything wrong with this procedure?

From the land of -20 F. , Laker
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  #41   IP: 76.118.149.176
Old 10-30-2011, 09:52 AM
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I'm not sure 1. If the starter can provide enough rotation for the pump to fill the engine with antifreeze. 2. I wouldn't run the starter any longer than 10 - 15 sec.

I place the end of hose into the bottle of antifreeze and I have another bottle cap off ready to go. Start the engine, wait untill 1st bottle empty, put hose into
into 2nd bottle. When its empty I shut down the engine.
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  #42   IP: 24.196.45.102
Old 10-30-2011, 11:11 AM
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Smosh ,

If you were responding to my post , I was running the engine , not cranking it.
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  #43   IP: 76.118.149.176
Old 10-30-2011, 11:26 AM
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I must be getting senile, I thought someone asked if they could antifreeze the engine just with the starter and not running the motor.

Steve
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  #44   IP: 24.196.45.102
Old 10-30-2011, 01:13 PM
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I think someone did ask that question , but I do not think it was recent on this thread.
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  #45   IP: 24.196.45.102
Old 11-01-2011, 07:07 PM
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I am re-running this in the hope that someone will answer and/or comment regarding the question at the bottom. Thanks in advance , Laker.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Laker View Post
Sabina was in a heated shed for 6 years , so it's been a while since I winterized. As best I can remember , I did the following on the hard :

Briefly ran engine , all hoses attached , to belch raw water out of system

Disconnected intake at thru hull and discharge at standpipe , inserted both into bucket of antifreeze

Ran engine until antifreeze in bucket was steamy hot and temp gauge told me that operating temp was reached

Fogged with MMO at spark arrester

Shut down , MMO injected thru spark plug holes

Easy procedure , no drain plugs to fight with , block full of antifreeze until spring start up.

Anything wrong with this procedure?

From the land of -20 F. , Laker
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Old 11-02-2011, 09:19 AM
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Red face topping off tank

my boat is winterized and on the hard, however , the local marina closed the pumps before I could top off the tank.
The tank is half full. Probably need about 8-9 gallons. Can I use any other fuel? eg mid grade or premium?

any additives recommended in addition to the star tron enzyme fuel treatment which I added to the tank (1 1/2 oz)
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Old 11-02-2011, 11:43 AM
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Ideally, non ethanol gas and if Star Tron has worked for you in the past, why change. I'm sure others have their preference.

Fwiw I use StarTron and MMO.

Steve
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by P30 View Post
Ajax, Good luck with the racing! I love the way the P30 sails, our first boat was a brand new First 29 and yet I swear this new girl is faster on all points except maybe hard on the wind. Let me know how you do.

Off topic: she has a newly installed furler and yet came with a full suite of North hank on headsails (spinnaker, 145, 125 and a light genny that I left on the boat) If you are interested in any (or a spare pole), PM or email me.
Yeah, I'm loving it. Check your PM's.
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Old 11-02-2011, 12:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Loki9 View Post
The block drain plugs are on the starboard side of the motor. Note that we are talking about 1/8" NPT drain plugs, which are not "freeze plugs". "Freeze plugs" are pressed into the block and only removed during an overhaul. The forward drain plug is behind the starter. It's possible to get to it without removing the starter, but it isn't easy. The aft plug should have a pipe nipple in it that extends out past the accessory drive. Hopefully, it won't break off when you try to remove the end cap. I've worked on two A4s now, one had a brass extension that opened easily, the other had an iron/steel extension that broke off right at the block when I tried to open it.

Access to the starboard side of the A4 is really poor in a P30, so I'd probably leave the plugs in and just run more antifreeze through it.
I'm going to have a look anyway, but if you're right about the poor access, I hope you're right that not removing them won't cause the block to explode this winter.
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Old 11-02-2011, 01:21 PM
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topping off tank

If your tank is half full, it might be better to drain it over the winter. I use a squeeze bulb for an outboard motor, and enough tubing to thread the outlet hose through the cockpit drain to a can on the ground. Once I get it going it doesn't need much help from me. Come spring I dump a couple of gallons of gas in the tank and siphon that out too.
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