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  #1   IP: 24.15.212.82
Old 05-22-2023, 12:31 PM
Sam Sam is offline
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NO START WHEN CONNECTED TO OLD/NEW FUEL PUMP

I help a lady friend who has a 77 27 ft Oday with late model A4, EI, 5 bolt carburetor and due to tight space a smaller "posi flow" style electric fuel pump. I winterize their boat and usually it is a easy routine start up in the spring. This year was no joy. The A4 sputters well with starting fluid, runs very well with good throttle response with auxlliary tank on cabin top with syphon line using gas that was pumped from the bottom of the main tank. Even though the engine mounted off brand fuel pump pumped a fair amount of gas I suspected this to be the culprit and change out to a new Facet posi-flow #60104 1.5psi-4psi. The new pump pumps fuel well but when connected to the carb the engine does not start. I can immediately use the auxiliary cabin top tank and it the A4 starts immediately and runs well. Hard to believe I have two bad pumps. Ordered a fuel pressure gauge but not thinking this will solve the problem.

I am a little stumped in my old age - missing something. Runs on the auxlillary tank well - not on a fuel pump. Changed filters andI removed the carb and gave it a good cleaning but did not split it half since I did not have a new body gasket- float is not stuck, no leakage and carb is dry. Has been trouble free for years with the smaller posi-flow pump [ space constraints make it harder to use the larger Facet pump - ran fwell for years with the smaller pump]. Any suggestions
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Old 05-22-2023, 03:13 PM
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I about went nuts with rubber debris in my fuel tank that would get stuck on the pickup tube.
Work backwards, *carefully* run a fuel line from the pump to an outboard tank and see if the pump works that way. If it does, the issue is further upstream
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Old 05-22-2023, 05:37 PM
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Thx Joe - When I disconnect fuel line from carb, turn on ignition the pump fills a qt jar fairly quickly. Connect the line to the carb the engine will not start. Disconnect fuel line from carb, disconnect pump positive wire to stop pumping and immediately connect auxiliary tank line [clear] [same 1/4in size] to carb and the A4 starts right up. Sequence repeated multiple times. It does make sense that some "debris" - in carb/fill tube/tank etc is moving and blocking the carb seat or pick up tube due to the higher pressure/suction psi from the pump vs the lower psi from the gravity feed auxiliary tank. Now I think about it could be both but the pumps are pumping fuel when fuel line is disconnected from the carb.

Think I will need to get a late model carb gasket [my spares are early model]and further clean carb and clean out tank and or change pick up tube??? The "movable debris" seems more and more plausible. Still open to any and all other ideas. Thx again Joe.
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Old 05-22-2023, 06:06 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is online now
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The engine should still start and run for a couple minutes from the fuel left in the carb when you disconnect the gravity feed and hook the pump back up. Going out on a limb here but do you still have 12v at the +side of the coil with the pump hooked up? Perhaps there is a wiring cross up. Worth a check.

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Old 05-22-2023, 08:11 PM
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A small hole in the fuel lines or pick up tube will prevent a pump from getting fuel to the carb. Since the engine starts and runs well with a aux tank, perhaps that is the place to look.
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Old 05-23-2023, 11:39 AM
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Are we sure their is gas in the gas tank? Is it full of water?
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Old 05-23-2023, 03:28 PM
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Thx all. Still no joy. I am getting fuel out of the Facet pump. Just added a pressure gauge between pump and carb -& about 1 ft of new A1 fuel line and getting a solid 2 3/4psi, also can collect fuel quickly in another container. When using the gavity feed auxillary tank I first suspected bad gas and used a gallon of fresh gas - A4 ran well. I then hand pumped a gallon gas from the bottom of the boat's tank into another auxiliary canister, connected the clear fuel line to the carb and again the the engine ran well and I ran it for about 25 min at idle and various rpms. Hooked up the 12 volt wire to the pump again [if I did not disconnect the 12 volt line the pump would spray out gas when the engine was running off of the gravity feed tank], connected the fuel line to the carb - does not fire by itself but will sputter when ether is sprayed into carb throat.

Still thinking carb needs to be disassembled to find some floating debris.. [Dave coil wires all secure - when it does not start when carb is connected to the Facet pump it will sputter when is ether is then sprayed into the carb throat]
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Old 05-23-2023, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
The engine should still start and run for a couple minutes from the fuel left in the carb when you disconnect the gravity feed and hook the pump back up. Going out on a limb here but do you still have 12v at the +side of the coil with the pump hooked up? Perhaps there is a wiring cross up. Worth a check.

Dave Neptune
All the tests with gravity feed I have usually just run the gas out - watch the fuel through the clear feed line. I disconnect the 12 volt power line otherwise the pump is spaying out fuel with the ignition on. [You did give me food for thought - start the engine with gravity feed, switch over to pump fuel line, connect pump power and see if the engine still runs with bowl fuel and pump? Not sure what this concludes yet??]
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Old 05-23-2023, 03:58 PM
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Is there some electrical issue with the pump grounding out the ignition?
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Old 05-24-2023, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Is there some electrical issue with the pump grounding out the ignition?
I have the flame arrestor off to make it easier to spray ether. As the engine is cranking w/the pump connected AND does not start some immediate ether spray starts the engine sputtering [firing] until spray is used up. I can switch to gravity feed [unpower pump] and it starts right up??? It was a good thought. thx
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Old 05-24-2023, 03:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Are we sure their is gas in the gas tank? Is it full of water?
Suspected this initially and also considered Dave's thought of fuel from fresh gravity feed gas still remaining in bowl. I hand pumped gas from the near bottom of the boats fuel tank into a gallon gas can and connected gravity feed arrangement. Ran the A4 for 20+ minutes at various speeds at the dock in neutral- [everyone at the dock thought I fixed issue]. Switched back to pump - no start but will fire on ether.

Still not 100% sure about the boat gas, pumped out a couple pints in a glass jar- no separation, looked a little clear, smelled a little light but a soaked rag ignited easily. I just may dump the est 15 gallons in the tank just to get a new starting point out of lack of a better idea??
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Old 05-24-2023, 03:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joe_db View Post
Is there some electrical issue with the pump grounding out the ignition?
When I get back to her boat in day or two I will reexamine the wiring with volt meter going back to the ignition switch. Even though it fires on ether [pump power not connected] the spark might be degraded but still enough to ignite the ether but not fuel. Thx Joe, good thought.
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Old 05-28-2023, 09:44 PM
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I'll bring closure to this thread- the engine now starts right up and runs smoothly. I'll summarize the events:

-A4 with EI and off brand electric fuel pump would not start after winter layup. Ran fine with gravity feed with auxiliary tank with fresh gas and then ran fine with auxiliary tank with boat tank old gas. Fuel pump working but un powered for gravity feed test. Did fire on ether spray.

- cleaned carb w/o disassembly and changed filters. Did not start but then ran fine with gravity feed from auxiliary tank fresh gas and then again with old gas. Upgraded pump to Facet brand - still no joy.

-received carb body gasket, disassembled carb and cleaned thoroughly [it needed it]. Checked wiring, spark, added fuel pressure gauge - all fine but still not starting.

- then I did what I should have done earlier - re read all the post replies with understanding,,,Dave's regarding fuel remaining in bowl from gravity feed attempts and Joe's suggestion on auxiliary fresh gas tank connected to inlet side of fuel pump. I connected a jar of fresh gas to inlet hose of fuel pump and while the gas got sucked in the A4 ran fine.
- past success in using gravity feed auxiliary tanks with the boats' old gas was a ghost - a false reality, per Dave we were actually using fresh gas that remained in in the bowl from the previous fresh gas attempt misleading us to thinking the boat gas was good. In retrospect it smelled like gas, ignited like gas but it was unusually clear.

Alls good with new gas in the tank [clean carb, new fuel pump and pressure gauge]. Cockpit fuel cap is being examined for new gasket and will be covered winter layup. [not much snow this year but a lot of rain]

The lesson here is you can do all the right steps but still make bad assumptions. The real lesson is to carefully and slowly read the MVP post replies and think - not rush to familiar conclusions. Thx everyone for you time and help.
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Old 05-28-2023, 10:18 PM
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Thus far I've helped out four A4 owners this year with a variety of issues. After basic testing I've found three of the four had water in the fuel. I suppose it's not surprising considering we have had local rain of nearly biblical proportions over the past six months.

Cleaning out the tank is one thing but finding the source of the water and fixing it is critical or you risk a repeat of the problem. I don't have fuel quality problems because:
  • I replace my fuel fill O rings annually (I have two tanks so two fill plates) whether they need it or not.
  • I replace my water separating fuel filter cartridge annually, needed or not.
  • I never ever use fuel dock gas. My gas is carried to the boat in 5 gallon jerry jugs from a local high volume gas station.
Here's a picture of the carburetor contents from a boat I was on two weeks ago.
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Old 05-30-2023, 09:31 AM
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I had endless water-in-gas issues until I replaced the fuel fill O-ring. It is a wear item
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Old 05-30-2023, 01:05 PM
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Thanks to Sam for informing us how his fuel issue was resolved. Bad fuel is in my opinion the main cause of our problems. Every spring I disassemble and clean the carb and replace filters, to be pro-active. My tank was "cleaned" about 15 years ago when a gas dock in another town mistakenly filled it with diesel and pumped it all out. Apparently, my marina's fuel dock (non-ethanol) has high enough volume. I put about 200 hours on the engine last year. The good old A4 ran like a champ despite having well over 3000 hours on it since the rebuild in 2001. I still need to get an O-ring for the fuel fill, which is covered in the off-season. I operate in a quiet area where most of the water that gets on the fuel fill is from a hose. That photo Neil provided of carb contents shows a good example of what happens when fuel/water filters are overwhelmed.
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Old 05-30-2023, 01:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
That photo Neil provided of carb contents shows a good example of what happens when fuel/water filters are overwhelmed.
Keep in mind this is a very different thing than in the old days. It used to be that water was heavier and would separate out in a filter and could be drained off one way or another. "Overwhelmed" was too much water.
Now well before we get pure water, we have a goopy mix of gas, ethanol, and water. I know of no filter that can deal with that. My own experiments show that some filters just clog up and pass nothing at all and others will pass all of it. When I called RACOR about this they confirmed their filters were not designed to deal with ethanol/water/gas mixes.
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Old 05-30-2023, 06:24 PM
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Years ago, I was befuddled by a Honda outboard which refused to run, even though the contents of my beautiful Racor filter/separator were absolutely clear. Eventually, I figured out that the contents were 100% water which had not yet emulsified.

Bad o-ring on the deck fill.

Bill
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Old 05-30-2023, 11:49 PM
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There are no dumb questions

I just received a good question from one of my slip neighbor projects with water in the fuel:
Quote:
Could you explain what clean the [fuel] system means?
My reply:
Quote:
Simply removing and replacing the fuel may not be enough. Like we discussed, replacement of the fuel filters is also necessary and after that is all done, I recommend pumping fresh fuel through the system with the final connection to the carburetor left undone. This can be accomplished with something as simple as an outboard style squeeze bulb. Catch the fuel that comes out and inspect it in a clear container to confirm there is no more water or other contamination coming through. If contamination is still there, more flushing should be done and the filters replaced again. Only then should the final hose connection to the carburetor be made and the engine started. And of course, replace the fuel fill deck plate O ring.
edit:
I'm not immune to water contamination either, it happened to me too. Once.
https://www.moyermarineforum.com/for...ad.php?t=11084
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Last edited by ndutton; 05-31-2023 at 12:19 AM.
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