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  #1   IP: 70.186.108.21
Old 01-07-2018, 10:45 AM
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Ericson 27 - Atomic start problemnewbie but not mech newbie

Hello everyone. Picked up an 1972 ericson 27 with an atomic 4, for a pretty cheap price. Now trying to get the engine started with help of friend, having issues.
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Old 01-07-2018, 03:14 PM
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Tell us the issues.

first thought:

Don't crank the starter too much with seacock open. This will pump water into exhaust and then water will back up into the exhaust valve ports through the manifold. Most new owners of inboard engines have to learn this the hard way.

If you have already done this, then get some oil or water dispersant(WD-40) in those cylinders NOW. Rust develops in few minutes i some cases.



Oh. BTW, welcome,

Russ
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:23 PM
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Thumbs up

Cajun, welcome and congrats on the boat!
Pictures and details help a LOT. You have to give us some details and we can give better help.

+1 what lat64 said
How fresh is the gas?
How long has the engine been sitting since it ran last?
Probably need to clean the carburetor
Buy a new set of spark plugs (Champion RJ8 or equivelant)
Spark, fuel, compression..those are the 3 things needed to make her go! One step at a time.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:25 PM
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more info

Sorry I pressed enter too fast on the previous message. Meant to explain better.

Current state of affairs, keeping in mind i barely just bought this boat.

Engine sit time unknown. Only told 'last 2 owners neglected the boat'.
Does crank over with no difficulty.
New cap
new plugs
new wires
plugs known to spark
using outboard type fuel tank, 2 week old gas.
replaced clogged up original carb with very clean outside/inside carb.
Had a mechanic friend helping.
Had an electrical fuel pump but it would not work that we know of.
Engine had head gasket replaced at some point in past because I found old gaskets.
Have not done compression test.
I totally understand the 'close the water valve' problem due to research before I bought the boat. Valve was always closed unless it would start.

After running down 1 battery and switching to 2nd battery, we did get it to barely idle for about 10 minutes by switching from original carb to new used clean carb. Oil pressure 30/40. Positive amps. Was only doing gravity fuel feed because electric pump would not turn on/run.
Was getting water thru exhaust after opening water line while running at idle.
Trying to speed up killed the engine.

After reading a comment from Mr Moyer himself that the motor would barely idle with gravity feed, I went buy a new low pressure electric fuel pump. Went to the boat today to study the state of affairs. Found the existing electric pump had been wired to a manual power switch which was turned off during the start up tries.

So as of now:
New low pressure fuel pump installed, plumbed, connected temporarily
to manual on/off switch.
Battery on charge.
Planning on retrying next weekend.

Can I hook the fuel pump positive lead to the coil positive for power, so the pump kicks on with the key?

I'm new to the A4 but have worked on air cooled vw's for long time.


Last edited by CajunSpike; 01-07-2018 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:36 PM
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Please have a compression gauge on hand next weekend and also check the timing advance weights under the points plate inside the distributor for freedom of movement and return springs intact.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:37 PM
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Cool! You have a motor. Just lotsa love, now it needs(it's talk like Yoda week).
Probably carb is just in need of a once-over.

Eventually you should have an oil pressure safety switch(OPSS) installed in series with your new fuel pump.

Cheers,

Russ
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:44 PM
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Once(fingers crossed) I get it to starting reliably then I'll rewire the pump to work off the ignition switch.

I just know on most of these older engines, key on sends power to the coil positive, so that should be a valid source of switched power short term.

I do understand the oil pressure cut off idea as well, long term.
Thank you guys.

We did try fwd/reverse when it was running. Boat responded correctly to both.

I opened up the new/used carb before install. Only had a small area(eraser size) of fuel dust on the side of the bowl.
Pulled the small jet screwed into the bowl with screwdriver. Was clean. Fuel passage bottom of carb clean. Only thing I didn't pull was the skinny tube with the small holes,
in the center of the carb.

Last edited by CajunSpike; 01-07-2018 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:47 PM
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Showing my lack of knowledge about this boat but is that the transmission and throttle control on the port side locker? Welcome to the forum.
Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:59 PM
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The levers in the cockpit area side wall down low are the tranny/engine speed control.
If thats what you are referring to, then yes.

This boat originally came with a tiller. Wheel was added on by some previous owner.

There is a gold plate on the interior wall referring to some 1979 sailing event, where the boat came in at 3rd place.

Boat was previously known as 'Try It'.
We're going to call it 'Seeker'.

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Old 01-07-2018, 09:01 PM
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Cool. Thanks.
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Old 01-07-2018, 09:09 PM
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Also found 3 brand new boxes of points in drawer. Love spare parts.

Found the original carb needle valve was missing its rubber seal on the tip.
This of course lead to fuel leakage when previous owner was trying to get it running.

Last edited by CajunSpike; 01-07-2018 at 10:38 PM.
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Old 01-10-2018, 10:07 PM
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During the disassembly of the 2nd carb we tried that didn't help, I noticed there was a small spring clip that attached the float to the needle valve.

Also noticed the 3rd real clean carb currently on the engine did not have that clip.

Is it worth the time to take apart the not working carb just to take that clip out and put it in the 3rd real clean carb, considering there is an electric fuel pump on that carb to force the needle valve open when necessary?
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Old 01-10-2018, 11:59 PM
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No nukes, no fire and fury

It is not the job of the fuel pump to force open the FLOAT valve. The fuel pump merely moves fuel to the float bowl. The float is buoyed by the fuel as is fills the float bowl and the float valve is pushed up into it's seat and closed by that lifting force.
This stops excess fuel flowing into the float bowl until it is used up by the venturi and more is needed. Then the float drops with the falling level of fuel and opens the float valve letting more fuel in.

Sometimes, but not by design, an electric fuel pump is so strong that it does overcome the float valve and pushes it down off the seat and too much fuel is delivered to the carb. Get the proper fuel pump.

This is why we should always have an Oil Pressure Safety Switch (OPSS) hooked up so if the engine dies while ignition switch is still on, the fuel pump with be shut off by the OPSS. No engine spinning, no oil pressure. No oil pressure, no voltage to electric fuel pump. And, no excess fuel pumped into carburator and overflowing into bilge to cause fiery death and destruction.
No Atomic bomb.
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Last edited by lat 64; 01-11-2018 at 12:07 AM.
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Old 01-11-2018, 07:57 AM
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Zenith Needle Valve Clip

See
http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...5&postcount=24
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:07 PM
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More diagnosis

So I finally got back to the boat after the flu. Shore power is now on. Both batteries fully charged. Decided to go back to step1, with compression tester. From front of boat to back. 60 psi/50 psi/0 psi/90 psi.
Houston we have a problem. Tried cranking anyway. did see gas pooling a little in the bottom of carb. So the electric fuel pump is working. Engine kinda put-put-put but never kicked over. So now we know why. So would you pull the engine to do this fix or try to repair in hull?

Also found spark plug color is pale yellow, not bright blue. Going to replace/check the points.



Last edited by CajunSpike; 02-13-2018 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 02-13-2018, 07:47 PM
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Old 02-13-2018, 08:47 PM
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Welcome to the forum Cajun. I was looking at a pic of your boat and thought, dang that's an Ericson. Then I read your earlier post saying so. DOH!

Of course by now you've already found where to get support for the Ericson: http://www.ericsonyachts.org/infoexchange/forum.php

This forum is similar to this one in that folks share experiential knowledge with no harshness that is so common to the interweb these days.
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Old 02-13-2018, 09:52 PM
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I'm a computer professional who spends lots of time helping others with their problems. This time I'm the one needing help and anything people know that can help in any way is very welcome. Nice to type to you sir. Already on the Ericson fb page and Website you pointed to. Hoping to run into a kind soul who knows how to direct/guide/assist a similar person with this engine issue. Worked on air cooled vw's for years, tools are my friend. Boat is 1972 E27 hull #61. Got it in December 2017...those pics are the first time I opened up the sails.
Already have a printed copy of the A4 tech manual as well.
:-)

Off topic question. Somebody has a Westerbeke 10hp diesel motor he bought for his boat for sale...but the boat sank before he installed it.
My wife is concerned a 10hp diesel would be too weak a replacement for the 30hp A4.
Opinions?

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Old 02-13-2018, 11:55 PM
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I would pull the engine and tear down but I tend to go the full Monty. Looks like rings and a stuck valve to me.

A friend has an Ericson 26-2 with a Yanmar 1GM10 (single cylinder 10hp raw water cooled diesel). Plenty of power for him.
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Old 02-14-2018, 01:28 PM
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Cajun, welcome aboard.

It sounds like you are where I am with the compression problem. I've been trying the "pour Marvel's Mystery Oil in the block over a period of time and see what happens" route to no avail. All I ended up with was an empty bottle of MMO and no increased compression.

I did stick a bore scope in the spark plug holes and saw the cylinder with 0 PSI had a fair amount of carbon and build-up around both valve seats. My experience with other engines tells me the only reasonable route to take at that point is to pull the engine, break it down, clean it up, and go over every part, replacing what can't be reused, and reassemble.

I know that a pretty big project, but once it's done, and I keep up with the regular maintenance, I should never experience any major mechanical problems for as long as I own this boat, which should be awhile. The reputation of the Atomic 4 for is rock solid as long as it's maintained.

Oh, and yes, I am one of those "Overkill is my middle name" kind of guys, like ndutton.
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Old 02-14-2018, 03:52 PM
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Exclamation

The engine will not try to start unless the spark is blue with those compression numbers. I always like to see to sets on compression numbers both taken at wide open throttle, a fully charged battery and all plugs removed. First test is the dry test and the second test is the wet test, just spray the cylinder being tested with some spray oil and check again. These tests will isolate a valve sticking and stuck rings. BOTH often fixable without even removing the head.

One question I have is how long since the valves were adjusted? Valve clearance can really affect compression if the motor has a week battery causing slow spinning.

Often times running the engine on 3 (your compression numbers should run) cylinders which is likely possible in your case once you get a good spark. Don't be afraid to try a bit of motor crack to get it lit. Often a bit of running with some MMO or 2 stroke oil in the fuel will lubricate the valves directly and get them working again.

Be sure to keep the water valve closed until it is ACTUALLY running.

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Old 02-14-2018, 10:10 PM
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Cajun, i am an IT guy too, and car & boat engines are a hobby. I didn't read the whole thread but I might try some MMO or something in the cylinders to try to unstick the rings on #3 before I yanked the motor..similar to Dave Neptune's suggestions.

edit 1 - That does not mean I disagree with the 'tear down' guys..That is the ultimate solution. I had a sticky #4 valve, and finally got it cleared up without pulling the head using MMO and half a season of running.

If tuned up decently (timing, good spark, clean carb) the engine should run on 3 cylinders. I wouldn't trust it to take me anywhere, but it should run fine for troubleshooting against the docklines while we try to get the #3 cylinder firing.

edit 2- I have seen carbs with and without springs...I don't really think they make a difference..the floats should close the needle without any trouble if the float is OK. Most importantly is to make sure the small idle jets are clear on either side of the butterfly valve closest to the manifold flange, so the engine will run at lower RPMs while we are working on it.

I'll edit my post once I go back and re-read if necessary. I am trying to save you a few $$ on engine repairs because you need new sails.
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Old 02-14-2018, 11:46 PM
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After reading everything I can find, definitely going the MMO route. Planning on going down to the boat after work tomorrow and putting some in each cylinder.

I know the head has been off before because there are old head gaskets on the boat. Hoping this means the head and intake nuts will come off easily, if needed.

Also found the allen wrench trick explanation and the 'rotate the valve from the valve keeper area'.

Hoping this helps compression on the front 2 cylinders too.

Everyone, thanks for your 2 bits. Will update as this goes on.

Did notice the starter sounds like it grinds against the fly wheel instead of a smooth spinning sound, when starting. Not top of list but it does concern me(later).

If anybody has a specific question or wants a specific picture/video, be glad to provide what I can.

Dave, I bought this boat cold turkey with little to no knowledge of what the previous owners did or didn't do. It was being used as an 'apartment' by a college student since it
was cheaper to stay in a boat instead of an apartment. So I'm going with the assumption that nothing was done as it should have been. Has been proven the water pump is working.
new coil, plugs, plug wires. haven't checked the points yet but have a brand new coil/points in box. We did get it running for about 5 minutes at dead idle. It died and never restarted. Plug inspection after that run showed like it was making carbon instead of running clean. This leads to eventually checking the exhaust system to make sure its not rusted and restricted.
The carb on it has a good needle valve rubber seal on it.
So things to be done is MMO and clean/replace points.

Really starting to suspect the weak spark is a big part of this, as well. I know even a lawn mower makes a nice blue spark. This engine doesn't.

Can you remove the valve galley cover with the intake manifold still installed?

Compression test was done on dry cylinder after trying to crank it over and not starting.
Did not test with oil in cylinders.
Engine hour meter shows about 530 hours.

If anybody wants a specific photo/video/answer, just let me know.

Both batteries are now connected to a shore powered battery maintainer...so I have full power for any testing.

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Old 02-15-2018, 02:06 PM
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CajunSpike, I too had an E-27 a 1974 #734 but the outboard model. My engine box became a nice dry storage area. Note I had an extended 15hp Evenrude electric start and a Minnie alternator. I never used full throttle and used the boat considerably for about 10 years never an issue.

RE the boat has been sitting!!!!! DO NOT ATTEMPT to start on the old fuel. Get an OB tank or even a 5 gallon can. Drain your carb and hook a direct line to the carb from the can/tank via a syphon (gravity) feed. This should supply enough CLEAN OILED UP FUEL to idle and run to about 1800 under n little load. This eliminates fuel as any of the problem. A tank that has sat that long should be thoroughly checked before any use. Mix the MMO or my preferred 2 stroke oil @ 1.5 oz per gallon. An OB tank with the squeeze hose is very easy to adapt even for temporary USE.

Don't worry about removing the side plate yet. See if getting it running for a bit with clean lubricated fuel gets it running better by shaking things loose again.

Did the engine make any other funny noises other than the starter? Try a bit of grease on the flywheel if that doesn't help you probably need a spacer.

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Old 02-15-2018, 02:27 PM
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Previous owner bought a small 3 gallon outboard tank and hand pump fuel line. This has been the fuel source used since I bought the boat 12/29/17. Carb was replaced with a new/used super clean could-eat-off-it carb. Removed previous electric fuel pump as not working and replaced it with a new low pressure electric pump sucking fuel from the 3 gallon tank with fresh no alcohol fuel. Not touching the built in tank until engine problem is solved.
Did start to see proper looking fuel vapor in carb last time I tried starting it, with spark arrestor removed and fuel pump running.

New fuel pump has new filter on it.

When we did get it running for about 5 minutes(had friend helping) the actual running of the motor was quite good.
Was using gravity feed out the 3 gallon tank at the time, but it only would dead idle.
Water did flow out of exhaust when we opened the water valve.
Was making positive amps, oil pressure was about 40psi.
He got it started by working the throttle and choke manually while I did the key.
I vaguely remember he just about totally blocked the carb with his hand to force it to suck in fuel.
This did the trick for it to start.
After running a bit, it cut off and never restarted.
Have tried starting fluid on multiple occasions. Never really seemed to help.
Thats one of the reasons I'm starting to suspect weak spark in addition to the bad hole.

History as far as I know:

Student buys boat(dunno from who) to live in it as its cheaper than an apartment.
Student graduates, puts boat up for $4500.
"Brian" buys it because he wants the slip its in.
"Brian" buys new coils/wires/plugs/outboard tank/outboard hose and tries to start engine. Gives up.
Puts boat on craigslist for $2000 with condition it be moved.
I bought it, moved it to another marina.
Caught flu....(grrr).
Now trying to get engine running and found dead hole.
Thats the 50 cent version of how I got from there to here.

I think I'll make a small video of it cranking and post it. Going to boat tonight.

Just so happens I have a 87 6hp Evinrude in my garage, but its normal length shaft and the thought of those holes for an outboard mount scare me. Thought about attaching some sort of outboard mount to the swim ladder on the rear of the boat, but thats low on my totem pole.

Re: starter noise.
Now that you mention it, I converted a lafitte skiff from a 454 chevy to a ford 6.9 diesel years ago. Installed the starter too tight and it did roughly make the same noise. Noise really sounds like its just an old starter that doesn't engage the flywheel enough. Its just not a clean engage/spin/release type of starter noise.

I'll say it again....THANK YOU for any/all input/ideas/warnings. I have a lot to learn.

Last edited by CajunSpike; 02-15-2018 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 02-15-2018, 03:53 PM
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Great advice above in trying to get the engine to run in it's current condition. If the culprit of the compression problems is stck valves, then this might free it up. But if this doesn't solve the problem, then maybe pop the head on the boat before you consider pulling the whole engine. This is real quick and easy (I've done it to both boats), it will quickly show you where the problem is, and $36.50 for new head gaskets from Moyer is very reasonable.
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"A ship in the harbor is safe ... but that's not what ships are built for.
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