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Old 07-17-2014, 10:09 AM
Mdoll Mdoll is offline
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water/oil pouring our oil fill hole

I just bought a 1969 38' Hughes sailboat with an A4. The motor was junk so I found a brand new A4 in the shipping crate and installed it (drop in).

I did put the old water pump on it as it had a larger impeller and thicker castings (I am heading for salt down the St Lawrence).

The motor is in the keel below the water line. The exhaust is a long copper pipe with approx 10 deg down angle from the engine followed by a drop with a trap and then the rubber hose goes up to the stern (3' lift) before exiting.

Engine ran great at idle and revving it dockside for a few starts without issue. When I engaged the drive to move it over to step my mast, started blowing white steam (I have read everything on here) which got heavy and then water stopped flowing out the exhaust altogether. I shut off the motor (which was purring like a kitten) and opened the hatches. The bilge was full to the oil pan with milky water and the engine had about 10 litres of water/oil sludge in it. All the plugs were clean and wet with water.

What I have done:

Pressure tested the cooling system engine and manifold. Holds 20 psi

Changed the water pump back to the new one

The boat has a hot water heater run off the exhaust. I added a shutoff valve and shut off the water flow to the heater (just didn't want more complications and I don't fully understand what is inside the exhaust so took it out of the loop)

I am confused because the engine never stalled, it ran fine. It would have pumped itself to the bottom happily running all the way. After i cleaned up the mess it started for a second and then died. Won't start again. I am assuming that the float bowl is full of water.

Any ideas on where all this water came from when the water jacket is fine?

Thanks,
Michelle
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:42 PM
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picture of exhaust

Not the greatest but you see the long copper pipe then it does an S bend just after the water hose attaches
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:50 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Lightbulb Woah tuff luck!

Michelle, first welcome to the MMI Forum.

Did you pressure check the manifold?

Water can get in through the exhaust when not running if not vented properly.

Is the water pouring in when running? If so I'd do another check of the block.

Get the water out ASAP and do not let it sit. Turn the water off AND get some oil into the cylinders. Give it a spin on the sterter once in a while to keep the engine from seizing!!!

Perhaps a pic or better description of WHEN it is happening. IE when running and/or stopped.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:25 PM
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Exclamation

Uh oh...what other information can we get about this "new" motor? Did you buy it from MMI?

I have no idea how a running motor can get water in the crankcase unless there is a breach between the water jacket and the crankcase somewhere inside the motor!
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:43 PM
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Hard to tell but I think you have a dry, water-jacketed exhaust like mine. It could be rusted through inside and water is flowing back into the engine. Can you isolate it and pressure test it?

Can you identify the copper pipes in the photo?
I labeled them. I think (A) is the exhaust?

Just FYI, I believe your fuel filter is not approved for inboards. It has a clear plastic bowl that won't withstand a fire test.

Russ
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:20 PM
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Thanks for the welcome

The new motor came from a guy who scraped his sailboat project. It has zero hours on it supposedly. It runs nice but who knows the guy I bought the boat from told me the motor was good too.

I ran it for a few hours total before this problem occurred.

I tested the manifold and the engine at the same time from the input on the block (guage side) to the water output on the manifold (pump).

I am totally confused how this water got in here, when the block passed. Hence me reaching out to the expertise here.

Also now I cannot get it to start I had to pull the distributor to pressure test it.... pulled it straight out and back in and really hoping I don't have to start from scratch setting the timing. I am 8 hours from my garage and my full tool box.

Thanks for your insight!

Michelle
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Old 07-17-2014, 03:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lat 64 View Post
Hard to tell but I think you have a dry, water-jacketed exhaust like mine. It could be rusted through inside and water is flowing back into the engine. Can you isolate it and pressure test it?

Can you identify the copper pipes in the photo?
I labeled them. I think (A) is the exhaust?

Just FYI, I believe your fuel filter is not approved for inboards. It has a clear plastic bowl that won't withstand a fire test.

Russ
A is exhaust (straight pipe out of manifold)
B is exhaust and water after it drops turns towards the motor and then loops back to stern.

I don't think I have anything here that I can pressure test the exhaust. It is all copper and fairly new.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Michelle, first welcome to the MMI Forum.

Did you pressure check the manifold?

Water can get in through the exhaust when not running if not vented properly.

Is the water pouring in when running? If so I'd do another check of the block.

Get the water out ASAP and do not let it sit. Turn the water off AND get some oil into the cylinders. Give it a spin on the sterter once in a while to keep the engine from seizing!!!

Perhaps a pic or better description of WHEN it is happening. IE when running and/or stopped.

Dave Neptune
Thanks Dave,

The water is out, new oil is in and I have been trying to start it all day. Cylinders are dry as it did start for a second shortly after it happened.

Boat was idling on the dock for half an hour or so. I closed the covers threw the lines and turned the boat around. Noticed smoke and pulled back into the dock. Water was coming out still so I let it idle another couple of minutes until water stopped all together when I shut it off. Opened the hatch and the bilge was full as was the engine with water.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:28 PM
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When you eliminated the heater loop you may have imposed an additional pressure burden on that jacketed exhaust system which should be your first suspect. Try running a short time with the water discharge cobbled to an overboard hose.Be careful not run more than a minute like this. Of course do not open the raw water intake until the engine is running.
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Old 07-17-2014, 04:40 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Exclamation Double check

Michelle, I think I would do another pressure check of the block! If it was repaired with an "epoxy" or "bondo" type patch it could of let go!!! Worth the double check. I doubt you could get that much through the manifold as the liquid would have to "flow" past the rings or valve guides to get into the block.

A "bondo" patch never works however "epoxy" patches can work for a very long time when done properly. I even see so called rebuilds that ran on the "skid" for a positive test fail hours later once installed from poor patches. Some do the patch just to get it sold~no scruples.

For water to do anything but drip it would have to be the block.

Dave Neptune
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Old 07-17-2014, 06:18 PM
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Thanks for your ideas everyone!

I am double checking the block now then I will continue to attempt to restart it again. I will roll it over this time while pressurize to make sure.

I am on the clock, paying by the day to sit here dead Fortunately I have wifi at the dock.

Michelle
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Old 07-17-2014, 07:18 PM
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Michelle,

Water issues aside, since you removed the distributor, it's possible that it went back in with the shaft in a different position, messing up your timing and keeping it from starting.

Pull just the distributor cap and insure that the rotor is pointing at #1 when the flywheel timing mark indicates you are at TDC _AND_ you have confirmed that it is TDC for the COMPRESSION stroke on #1, not the exhaust stroke.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:40 PM
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I agree with Ed, once the distributor was removed the timing was lost unless alignment marks were made before removal. Having not read that they were (as described in this post), you're in for a start from scratch timing exercise. It's not that hard, just be careful and no assumptions or guessing. There's no point in trying to start the engine until this is done.

I also agree with Dave, no harm in double or triple checking the cooling system, same as you did before. While you're at it the water jacketed exhaust pipe can be pressure tested the exact same way via the water in and water out ports.

edit:
Is this a late or early model engine? Big difference in oil fill locations and heights.
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Last edited by ndutton; 07-17-2014 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 07-17-2014, 11:54 PM
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At first your motor was;

"a brand new A4 in the shipping crate and installed it (drop in)".

Then it was;

"the new motor came from a guy who scraped his sailboat project. It has zero hours on it supposedly. It runs nice but who knows the guy I bought the boat from told me the motor was good too."

And now you are wondering why you have problems?

Sorry mate...you are in irons at the moment.

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Old 07-18-2014, 12:00 AM
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Michelle, one idea is to hook up a fresh water pressure hose to the engine cooling system. Just hook it after the pump. You might find out something.

It is hard to get cooling water into the crank case. Did the bilge water get as high as the crank shaft? There is no seal at the flywheel.

The water pump could leak into the crank case, but that is very unlikely. There is a weep hole between the impeller and the crank case.

You could also use that hose to pressure test the water side of the exhaust.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romantic comedy View Post
Michelle, one idea is to hook up a fresh water pressure hose to the engine cooling system. Just hook it after the pump. You might find out something. . . . . .You could also use that hose to pressure test the water side of the exhaust.
This strikes me as risky. Anything wrong and there's even more water where it doesn't belong.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:27 AM
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I agree Neal. But would you rather have seawater in the engine?

If it starts, what will happen?

Best would be to find whatever leak is there by using an air pressure test. But we gotta do what we gotta do, sometimes.

With the exhaust, there needs to be some finesse. Not too much pressure.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:31 AM
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I'd rather not have ANY water in the engine. Agree on the exhaust pipe water jacket test. Easy does it on the pressure. This is not the time for destructive testing.
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Old 07-18-2014, 12:46 AM
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ok, how about using a bucket of kerosene, or diesel, to suck up into the water pump. Take the water exit and put it to the bucket to circulate the kero. The engine could be run for a couple of minutes.
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:05 AM
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I'm missing something here. Is there a problem testing with modest air pressure?
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Old 07-18-2014, 01:16 AM
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I am also wondering about the exhaust system. Michelle, you said it was new? Is the boat in salt water? I see green on some other parts, and would expect it on the exhaust too.

Do you know if the new exhaust was ever used? Could it be possible that the new exhaust is what caused the demise of the old engine?

Neil, air is fine.
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Old 07-18-2014, 07:52 AM
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Michelle, where are you? Ontario, Quebec or States side?
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:09 AM
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running again

Ok set the timing and it is running again. Idles good with good water flow out the back. Still steaming a lot. But oil didn't rise in level. Haven't re tested the block yet, wanted to get the timing back set.

The guy scraped the sailboat, but the engine was in a crate in the barn (not installed)

The water could possibly been high enough to catch the edge of the flywheel, never thought of that. Thanks Maybe it was water then engine instead of other way around.

Really appreciate you all I'm in fresh water right now on the St Lawrence just south of Montreal in Ontario.

Going to do some more testing, will let you know the outcomes.

Michelle
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:34 AM
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Michelle,

After carefully re-reading your original post, I have several questions and observations:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
...The motor is in the keel below the water line. ...
Right away, you're set up for a potential siphon to start unless there are anti-siphon loops, preferably with an anti-siphon valve.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
...Engine ran great at idle and revving it dockside for a few starts without issue. When I engaged the drive to move it over to step my mast, started blowing white steam (I have read everything on here) which got heavy and then water stopped flowing out the exhaust altogether. ...
To me, this progression says that insufficient cooling water was getting to the manifold, allowing it to get hot enough to produce steam. The further halting of water out the exhaust, coupled with the massive amount of water in the boat, suggests that the cooling water was being diverted into the engine or the bilge. The real question is, where?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
... I shut off the motor (which was purring like a kitten) and opened the hatches. The bilge was full to the oil pan with milky water and the engine had about 10 litres of water/oil sludge in it. All the plugs were clean and wet with water. ...
Your observations don't tell a consistent story. If "All the plugs were ... wet with water.." then the engine would not be "...purring like a kitten..." . The A4 is a marvelous beast which will run on 3 cylinders without you hardly noticing anything, and will even run (barely) on two cylinders. Are you sure the "wet" was water and not fuel? Water will form distinct beads on the plug, while fuel will cause a uniform sheet of "wetness". Also, as previously mentioned, it would not be possible to push massive quantities of water from the cylinders, past the rings and into the crankcase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
... Pressure tested the cooling system engine and manifold. Holds 20 psi...
Did you test individually, or all at once? If individually, did you include the hose from the thermostat cap to the manifold .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
... I am confused because the engine never stalled, it ran fine. It would have pumped itself to the bottom happily running all the way. ...
This eliminates any theories involving water in the cylinders. One Critical question: How high on the engine did the water get? The A4 does not have a sealed crankcase, and rising water will enter the crankcase directly, usually through the dipstick hole first. This would be good news, as it would be an external plumbing problem, not an engine problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mdoll View Post
... After i cleaned up the mess it started for a second and then died. Won't start again. I am assuming that the float bowl is full of water. ...
Where, exactly, in this chain of events did you remove the distributor. As Neil noted, unless you were careful to remove the cap and mark the position of the rotor, and get it replaced in the same position without having turned-over the engine, then your timing is off and this is the reason it won't start.

Don't get discouraged. Keep at it, step by step. We'll help you through it.

EDIT: Michelle's post got in while I was writing this. I've GOT to learn to type faster!
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:56 AM
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Hurray!

I looked up the drawings of your boat on theS&S web site. the engine sits low in the bilge. Very likely to flood it from the front of the crank if the bilge water gets too high.
...
Dang it! Ed beat me to the punch on several points Ha!

Ok, At least I have one comment, The jacketed exhaust on my own boat may actually be stainless steel. I have scratched it and it is shiny silvery metal not copper. I think it was painted to match the engine. Yours looks very similar in color. I posted this pic just to confirm if you have a dry exhaust. The geen slobbering down the pipe is from the bronze fitting at the hose inlet. The copper paint just won't corrode. Is yours, in any way, like this pipe?

Still need to find out how the bilge flooded. That could be a boating hazzard!

Cheers,
Russ
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