Change oil through built-in pump, or through reversing gear?

[ernst]

I have one of the few Atomic-4s that have a built-in pump for changing the oil. I have used it for changing the oil for the last 8 years (ie as long as I have the boat). It works pretty well though it is not perfect. The pump is tiny, it takes many strokes (50?) to finish the job and it is a bit hidden between carburetor and fuel pump. My biggest problem has been, however, that I only get maybe 2 quarts out, possibly less.

This year, I thought I try something different and I opened the reversing gear cover and pumped out there. Access there is actually excellent since I have a V-drive and the cover is right there. More importantly, I had hoped that I would be able to get much more oil out since I thought that all oil would run down there because of the slope of the engine.

Disappointingly, if anything it was less, I would say less than a quart.

I looked in the 'Moyer bible' and, although I could not find a diagram showing how the oil gets to the reversing gear, the text says it is pumped through a small hole through the crankshaft. I had assumed that there would be a large connection for the return of the oil to the mail oil pan but now I wonder if this is right.

So, in brief: where will get the largest fraction of oil out, through the reversing gear or through the built-in oil pump?

Thanks,

--ernst

[Jesse Delanoy]

Forget about both approaches. Order the Moyer oil change kit. This has a brass tube that mounts in the oil change plug, on the side of the crankcase below the carburetor, and goes down nearly to the bottom of the crankcase. It is a permanent installation, and replaces the plug that's already there. It has a rubber hose on the outside end, that you can attach to a hand or electric pump, or a vacuum pump, to pump out the dirty oil. Make sure the oil is hot first, by running the engine for 15 minutes or so (or more - I usually change my oil after motoring into an anchorage), then pump it out. I get about three and a half quarts of dirty oil out each time.

I used to use a hand pump with a flexible hose that I would insert in the reversing gear chamber. It took a long time, was messy, and I never got more than about two and a half quarts out. This is far superior.

Jesse Delanoy
s/v Off the Grid
Baltimore/Pasadena

[ArtJ]

Just a note regarding the use of the Plug under the carburetor.

It may not be available if a indigo oil filter kit is installed because that
is the return point for the oil and it is already occupied by a hose.

There is another plug near the alternator/ starter. however; I am not
sure if the oil change tube could be accomodated there without
interference. In addition, it may not be as low of a point as the one
under the carburetor.

It would be nice to be able to use this Moyer tube with the
indigio oil filter installed.

[agraziano23]

I have an older style block. I changed the oil with an electric pump via the dipstick. I'm aware of the moyer solution for the oil plug under the carb, but why not user the oil plug on the other side of the engine by the flywheel? it looks to be about 1/2 inch and low enough to drain all the oil. I don't have much wiggle room for removing the plug, but besides that fact why can't I install a 90degree elbow followed by a series of tubes, valve, and cap?

[ArtJ]

I have changed the oil via the dipstick for many years - a laborious process
that is very tedious and doesn't get all the oil.

At Don's suggestion, I started changing it via the transmission cover
and found it much better. I was able to drain 3 1/2 gal very rapidly using
a larger diameter tube and the Blue Metal Pump can.

I also made a suggestion, posted elsewhere about tapping a 3/4 inch
plug in the Transmission cover so as to change oil without removing
the cover.

[ernst]

Originally Posted by Jesse Delanoy

Forget about both approaches. Order the Moyer oil change kit. This has a brass tube that mounts in the oil change plug, on the side of the crankcase below the carburetor, and goes down nearly to the bottom of the crankcase. It is a permanent installation, and replaces the plug that's already there. It has a rubber hose on the outside end, that you can attach to a hand or electric pump, or a vacuum pump, to pump out the dirty oil. Make sure the oil is hot first, by running the engine for 15 minutes or so (or more - I usually change my oil after motoring into an anchorage), then pump it out. I get about three and a half quarts of dirty oil out each time.

...

Jesse,

I was assuming that the built-in pump uses the 'oil change plug', and I also assumed that it would go as deep as the Moyer kit. Am I wrong?

--Ernst

[keelcooler]

Big aft tilt on my install. I installed the kit and can only extract 2 qts. At the dip stick I get 3 1/2. The old a4 pump screws in at the same pan spot as the kit and extends down just as far, so you would most likely not see improvement w/a kit. Try the rear.

[ernst]

Originally Posted by ArtJ

I have changed the oil via the dipstick for many years - a laborious process
that is very tedious and doesn't get all the oil.

At Don's suggestion, I started changing it via the transmission cover
and found it much better. I was able to drain 3 1/2 gal very rapidly using
a larger diameter tube and the Blue Metal Pump can.

I also made a suggestion, posted elsewhere about tapping a 3/4 inch
plug in the Transmission cover so as to change oil without removing
the cover.

WOW! 3 1/2 gal!

I now wonder if I should have waited longer to let the oil collect there. Did you have to wait for a long time to get all the 3 1/2 gal?

(Oh, I did run the engine for about an hour before the oil change so it was well warmed up).

--Ernst

[Mark S]

Gotta be 3 1/2 quarts. That's about all anyone can get out via any method because anywhere from 1 to 2 quarts are trapped in the engine on shut off and don't get back to the crankcase. Changing oil frequently insures mostly clean oil most of the time.

Mark

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by ernst

WOW! 3 1/2 gal!

He obviously meant 31/2 QUARTS!

"In terms of capacity, when the engine is level and completely empty (as after an overhaul), it will take about 5 1/2 quarts to fill it. Given the rearward slant that most engines have after installation, and the fact that it is impossible to get all the oil out during an oil change, you will seldom need to add more than three or three and a half quarts of oil to refill the engine."
-Don Moyer

[sastanley]

Roger...3 quarts it is.

I did the oil change/winterization today and got approx. 3 quarts out thru the dipstick hole.

I added all the MMO I had on board (oops, didn't bring enough, I only had about 12 oz.) and the remainder I added new Rotella 30w. Ran her for a minute to suck in antifreeze, and while I did that squirted Seafoam into the carb to "fog" and then squirted MMO into the cylinders.

I'll go down in a few days (warm today, but possible snow and freeze this weekend!!) and will drain the carb & check for water in the Racor. Fuel issue not as critical as getting antifreeze in the block!

[ernst]

Originally Posted by Mark S

Gotta be 3 1/2 quarts. That's about all anyone can get out via any method because anywhere from 1 to 2 quarts are trapped in the engine on shut off and don't get back to the crankcase. Changing oil frequently insures mostly clean oil most of the time.

Mark

Yes, 3 1/2 qts, I guess. Still, I got _a lot_ less out. Usually I change the oil during fall lay up only which comes to about 50 hours per year.

But the oil is completely black, wouldn't want to apply the word 'clean' to it.

I am considering to install the Indigo oil filter kit.

--Ernst

[ArtJ]

Originally Posted by ernst

WOW! 3 1/2 gal!

I now wonder if I should have waited longer to let the oil collect there. Did you have to wait for a long time to get all the 3 1/2 gal?

(Oh, I did run the engine for about an hour before the oil change so it was well warmed up).

--Ernst

Okay 3 1/2 quarts (embarrassing typo)!

How much you can get out depends on oil temperature, your Aft Tilt and how
full the oil was .

[ernst]

Originally Posted by ArtJ

Okay 3 1/2 quarts (embarrassing typo)!

How much you can get out depends on oil temperature, your Aft Tilt and how
full the oil was .

No worries

It is true that my oil level was close to 'low' so that may have contributed to the meager crop

An oil filter seems like a good idea and, by browsing this forum, I saw that Don recommends the Indigo system. I learned from Tom Stevens (Indigo) that it uses the same hole as my oil change pump so I will have to choose between the two. Decisions, decisions...

--Ernst

[Dave B]

I just added the Indigo oil change kit plus a 12V oil/fuel transfer pump from ebay linking them with a ball valve via the oil change port on Indigo's kit and was able to do an oil change in just moments with ABSOLUTELY no mess! I was able to pull almost a full gallon of oil out of the engine in under a minute! I will try to post a photo of my installation on my '78 Catalina 30.

[ernst]

WOW! That seems to be the ticket! I had no idea that the Indigo kit has an oil change port.

I suppose one limitation is still that the oil is not from the deepest point of the sump but from wherever the (engine) oil pump picks up the oil (this is where the Indigo filter receives the oil from, right?) but sucking out a whole gallon is way more than I ever could get. And doing this without any mess makes it even sweeter.

I will contact Tom (Indigo) and order the kit.

Thanks a lot!

--Ernst

[Dave B]

Go on ebay and check out this item number. It is the same pump I added to my kit. You simply hook the alligator clips to the positive & negative terminals on the starter and you have power! ebay item number 120501989140 There are several more just like it too.

On the Indigo kit you will find several ports & plugs. I simply used one of the ports, inserted a threaded coupler then a valve to allow for the pump to be perminently installed with a positive shut off then attached the valve to the pump. Just study my photo and you will see everything you need.

Good luck! It works great!

[ernst]

Dave,

sounds great! I just ordered the oil change kit from Indigo and the pump that you mentioned on ebay.

Thanks a lot!

--Ernst

[sastanley]

OK, Dave..I think you might have convinced me!

I just changed the oil in my C-30 last week, by hand, pumping it out the dipstick...Giant PITA!

Cheers!

[roadnsky]

Originally Posted by sastanley

I just changed the oil in my C-30 last week, by hand, pumping it out the dipstick...Giant PITA!

Shawn-
If you don't go all out and get the Indigo Oil Filter, then at least get the MMI Oil Change Kit. It is almost as good as the WP EXTENDER BOLT. (Almost)

[rpowers]

The first time I tried it I used a 50cc syringe to aspirate the used oil from the dipstick hole.

Once was enough!

Now I stop my my work laboratory and borrow a peristaltic pump for and hour. /

I connect some peristaltic tubing to a 2ml pipette which is placed down into the dipstick hole.

With this rig I can empty all the oil in about 5 minutes while sipping a cold beer.

Excellent!!!

[roadnsky]

Rick-
Hey, and while you're at it, you can get a blood transfusion!
Considering we sail so we can drink, does it work on kidneys?
You should market those!

[Rick_Powers]

Yes, and be careful not to get blood in your alcohol system

[ndutton]

OMG! Talk about an aristocratic oil change system. Do you wash your deck with Perrier??

(Jerry - aristocratic = 5 syllables)

[roadnsky]

Now thats what I'm talking about! Nice job Neil! Very erudite of you!
Man, I'm glad we raised the vocabulary bar on this panel!
Considering all we talk about is drinking, sailing and working on old engines...