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  #1   IP: 174.218.164.122
Old 06-21-2019, 11:50 PM
lost in translation lost in translation is offline
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Canít shift into forward detent or get reverse

I have an Atomic 4 in a C&C 36 with pedestal shift and a friend left it in reverse for a week. My shift handle is stiff and so it remained in reverse after he shut off the engine even though there is not a detent in reverse.

The next weekend I found the boat did not go into gear in reverse and lost the detent to go into forward. The boat would only slowly proceed forward. It was as if the neutral region of the shift lever had become extremely large.

I worked on adjusting the collar tonight but can not get the fingers to engage with the cone, regardless of turning the color or releasing pressure on the 3/4 nit that controls the reverse tension. What am I doing wrong? I have removed the pedestal cable to ensure there is no complication there.

Iím attaching two short videos of what I see and welcome all advice.https://photos.app.goo.gl/cZzMUEHKUHCFQ9q5A
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  #2   IP: 108.34.253.10
Old 06-22-2019, 08:48 AM
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Hello.

In the second of your two video clips, it appears that the actuating bar (aka 'cam') is not properly installed. A photo of the correct installation can be found in the following forum thread at entry #10:

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ead.php?t=9304

Regarding your stiff shift cable and/or pedestal mechanism, beware that the sustained pressure this can apply in the forward position can lead to serious damage:

http://www.moyermarineforum.com/foru...ad.php?t=10966

I hope these links help some.

Best regards,

Jack.
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  #3   IP: 174.218.164.122
Old 06-22-2019, 09:44 AM
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Jack,

Thank you very much. I realized the shift bar had become disconnected while waiting for the post to be approved.

Im researching now how to repair and the link you provided looks quite good for that.

Bailey
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  #4   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 06-22-2019, 08:13 PM
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In addition to the reverse cam being disconnected, the fwd motion isn't going 'over the hump' and engaging the notch.
Recommend you disconnect you shift linkage from the engine, then get the transmission working properly with it's lever. Then you can work on your shift linkage.
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Old 06-23-2019, 02:38 PM
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I've reconnected the reverse bar and am finding that, just as Al noted, I'm still not getting the fingers over the cone for forward gear. The videos I showed were taken with the shift cable to the pedestal removed.

I can't figure out why I can't get the fingers to engage properly. It feels as if they won't expand enough or I'm at the end of my travel of the shift lever too quickly.
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Old 06-23-2019, 07:31 PM
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I recommend you back off on your fwd adjustment. Sounds like the fwd adjustment is MUCH too tight, preventing the transmission linkage from going into fwd.
Similar for the reverse adjustment - back it off until the transmission stuff goes to full reverse. This will give you full throw on the transmission input lever. Once you have full throw, tighten things up so they don't slip in fwd or reverse - this should NOT change full throw travel on the input arm, and will give you the max deadband for neutral.
Once this is done, you can play with the linkage to the pedestal. Do not adjust the transmission at this time.
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  #7   IP: 108.195.144.31
Old 06-24-2019, 10:41 AM
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Thank you. I was able to get the transmission all back together and working to some extent. I have the forward detent back and reverse is not tight enough.

I do worry that the reverse bar which runs from the yolk to the reversing band does not fit tightly enough into the yolk. When I engage in reverse, I can feel the transmission start to reverse. If I pull farther on the shift lever on the pedestal (to tighten the reverse band), the system looses friction and goes back to a more neutral setting. The load on the shifter reduces during this time.

If this is a reverse bar issue, has anyone ever bound the reverse bar into the shift yolk to make sure it stays attached?

I suppose the reverse bar could be worn over time and I need a new one. It looks fine to me with visual inspection.

Special thanks to Don's manual for the great pictures of the mechanics of the transmission. Very helpful to keep looking at and thinking of.
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Old 06-24-2019, 10:55 AM
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One more note: I noticed the shaft that runs to the shifting lever of the transmission has a little bit of play laterally. If the shaft moves to max left, the yolk risks losing its capture of the reverse bar/cam.
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Old 06-24-2019, 12:26 PM
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Here is a picture of all reassembled. After taking the picture, tightened the reverse nut to pull things together, but there still is risk of the reverse bar losing the yolk.

I wonder if the pin is worn? I would not think the reverse bar would lose much width over time.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/biQyvDtJGNPAvbWH7

Last edited by lost in translation; 06-24-2019 at 12:28 PM. Reason: update photo.
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  #10   IP: 138.207.175.58
Old 06-24-2019, 01:50 PM
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Backtracking a bit, so it was working just fine, and then suddenly it wasn't?

Bill

Last edited by Administrator; 06-24-2019 at 01:52 PM.
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Old 06-24-2019, 02:32 PM
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To go back, the system has never been great in reverse since I've owned the boat for a year. I have tightened the reversing nut to help twice and have seen some benefit there. I found that I could go "past" reverse on the shift lever at the steering pedestal. It made me feel there was a reverse detent though of course there is not.

With the system at that state, a friend left the shift lever in reverse for one week and then I could not get the system to go into the forward detent, either with the cable or after removing the cable and just using the lever. It was as if the neutral area expanded radically.

I opened up the cover plate and posted those videos above.

After those videos and some mistakes in loosening the adjusting collar so much that I needed to reload the clutch plates on the spline, I have the system back to where it was before I lost forward. Forward works well and reverse is difficult to achieve as I can go past the best reverse engagement and, if reverse is achieved, it doesn't support high power.

My next step is to tighten the forward adjusting collar a little more and also the reverse and see if that improves everything. I'm really not sure how I'm able to go past ideal reverse tension and wonder if that brace bar is separating again from the shifting yolk. While the work was a little frustrating from time to time, in the end I've enjoyed the learning and am looking forward to making it work very well.

Last edited by lost in translation; 06-24-2019 at 02:39 PM.
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  #12   IP: 99.30.185.198
Old 06-24-2019, 02:35 PM
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Looking closely at your videos in post #1, it appears that the forward clutch-pack discs have come out of their drum. This most likely happened when the adjustment nut had been backed off of the threaded main shaft. You may be able to re-align the tangs into their slots and then tighten the slotted nut without removing the entire assembly.
Tom
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  #13   IP: 108.195.144.31
Old 06-24-2019, 04:16 PM
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That's exactly right. When I realigned the tabs and got the clutch discs back together, I could achieve the forward detent again.

Now just have the reverse issue described above.
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Old 06-24-2019, 05:53 PM
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I looked at your photo, and something isn't right.
I suspect the roller is missing. There is supposed to be a riveted pin holding a roller in that slot. If the pin shears, the roller ends up in the bottom of the transmission. If only the pin were replaced, the assembly could look like your photo. Take a look into that slot with a mirror - if there's just a pin (about 1/8 or 3/16) you've found the problem.
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Old 06-24-2019, 07:15 PM
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That would make a lot of sense. Is this the roller part?

https://moyermarine.com/product/reve...orev_02-1_386/
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:05 PM
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No, that's not it. Thickness is to fit into that slot. ID about 1/8 or 3/16 (to fit the pin that goes into the hole. OD about 3/4". Get a magnet on a stick and go fishing in your transmission - you'll likely find it!
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Old 06-24-2019, 09:44 PM
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Since you have the forward clutch pack now working, the next step I would take would be to align the tab on the brake band reversing bar into it's intended hole and tighten the reversing band adjustment nut until the band is snug around the clutch pack drum. If the 1/2"od roller is still in place the reversing bar should now be resting flat against the side of the reverse band brace. If all of the parts now line up correctly, you should then loosen the large adjustment nut just far enough to allow the forward drum to turn freely. At this point the final adjustments for forward and reverse should be made in small increments.
Tom
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Old 06-25-2019, 11:47 AM
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Thank you both. I'm going to see if the roller is there this weekend and if so, continue as you advise. If I can't locate it or find it with a magnet, I will need to replace it.

Two questions if the roller is missing from the brace pin.
1) Is the brace pin (https://moyermarine.com/product/impr...ar-ktas_02_87/) difficult to remove from the reversing bar? I was afraid it was a press fit. I did not see a cotter pin on it as shown in the link above.

2) Is there something I could bring to work as a roller if the roller is in fact missing?
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Old 06-25-2019, 12:50 PM
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If the roller is missing, there are two ways to remove and replace the brake band adjusting bolt. One method is to remove the upper half of the reversing gear housing, which involves considerable disassembly, or to use the "Kaminsky" method. It is described in detail in the "tech tips" section, and really is the more logical way to remove the bolt/roller assembly. If you look in the parts section, you will notice that all of the Moyer supplied housings and engines have this really cool mod.
Tom
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
If the roller is missing, there are two ways to remove and replace the brake band adjusting bolt. One method is to remove the upper half of the reversing gear housing, which involves considerable disassembly, or to use the "Kaminsky" method. It is described in detail in the "tech tips" section, and really is the more logical way to remove the bolt/roller assembly. If you look in the parts section, you will notice that all of the Moyer supplied housings and engines have this really cool mod.
Tom
You can see evidence of the Kaminksy mod here, on the port side of the housing in a Moyer rebuild.

Bill
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Old 06-26-2019, 10:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
... use the "Kaminsky" method. It is described in detail in the "tech tips" section, and really is the more logical way to remove the bolt/roller assembly.
Since the TECH TIPS are not as common on the site as they used to be and maybe even a bit hidden () here is a link.
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Old 07-14-2019, 07:20 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by thatch View Post
Since you have the forward clutch pack now working, the next step I would take would be to align the tab on the brake band reversing bar into it's intended hole and tighten the reversing band adjustment nut until the band is snug around the clutch pack drum. If the 1/2"od roller is still in place the reversing bar should now be resting flat against the side of the reverse band brace. If all of the parts now line up correctly, you should then loosen the large adjustment nut just far enough to allow the forward drum to turn freely. At this point the final adjustments for forward and reverse should be made in small increments.
Tom

Tom, after some frustration today working on the system and moving the forward adjustment collar to no avail, I re-read your instructions and realized I was just not tightening the reversing band enough. It took about 10 more wrenches on it (each 1/6 of a turn or so) to get the reverse band tight enough to lock the prop shaft. I then backed off one turn and now have reverse.

Yes, the reversing bar is a bit sketchy in the yoke, but it doesn't come off of its own accord so I will stick with this and hope it lasts.

Thanks again to all the contributors for helping me address the issue. I'm very excited to have a fully powered up reverse now.

Separate note - I tried using a magnet to fish for the roller that might have gone missing. I was unable to fish for it. The magnet caught on everything in the transmission and foiled my attempts to get down to the oil. Felt like a game of operation. I suspect the roller is still there but worn down. I did not get a visual on it.
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:02 AM
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The system worked well for a bit but was overly tight in the reversing band with almost no space between forward and reverse and some engine revs required to make the transition from reverse to forward. I was determined to live with this or back off one notch in the 3/4 nut as I had a good reverse finally.

After motoring for about 45 minutes one evening, I had a strange episode where the motor stalled in forward and would only go in a slow reverse.

I backed off the reversing band with 3 notches in the 3/4 nut and now am back to no reverse but good forward.

I removed the ship's shifting cable from the pedestal per Ken's request and identified that the forward / reverse shifter can go "past" reverse in engagement as I have experienced at the pedestal. I also identified that when the direct shifter is pulled through the maximum range, it can pull the reverse bar pin that is captured in the shift yoke out, which nullifies all chances of reverse.

Would love to solve this issue once and for all but it is proving difficult.
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Old 08-19-2019, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lost in translation View Post
After motoring for about 45 minutes one evening, I had a strange episode where the motor stalled in forward and would only go in a slow reverse.
Can you go into a bit more detail on this?

Quote:
Would love to solve this issue once and for all but it is proving difficult.
It may be time to start "at the beginning" to get to a known baseline setting.
Please read thru Don's most recent Newsletter posting here and also attached as a PDF.
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File Type: pdf MMIAugust2019.pdf (259.8 KB, 165 views)
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