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  #1   IP: 65.184.51.169
Old 10-26-2010, 09:28 PM
Brosov Brosov is offline
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no fuel through carb

Long story short, I have spark, but no start. I get fuel through the fuel pump, but apparently not through the carb. I've taken the carb off a few times and cleaned it thoroughly. But somehow, gas is still not getting through, I think. What could be imeding the flow through the gizmo? The float seems to be set correctly and the needle drops out of it's seat when the float doesn't press up on it. Grrrrr. Any ideas on where the issue could be coming from?
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  #2   IP: 173.166.26.241
Old 10-26-2010, 09:58 PM
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If fuel is filling the float chamber but not getting to the engine, the next place to check is the main jet. It is safest to take the carb off the engine to check this because the parts are so small. You could take the plug off the back of the bowl first to see if indeed fuel is getting to the float chamber. It is real easy to drop this plug into the bilge!
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Old 10-26-2010, 10:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hanleyclifford View Post
If fuel is filling the float chamber but not getting to the engine, the next place to check is the main jet. It is safest to take the carb off the engine to check this because the parts are so small. You could take the plug off the back of the bowl first to see if indeed fuel is getting to the float chamber. It is real easy to drop this plug into the bilge!
For clarity, here's a pic of what Hanley is talking about...
Watch out for that little washer in there!
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:35 AM
Brosov Brosov is offline
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Thanks, guys. When I pulled the carb off last time, I noticed that the float chamber was only partially filled (maybe about 1/5 full?). Is this "normal", or would I expect that sucker to be filled more? Also, I've gotten away with using the same old gaskets each time I have rebuilt the carb... they have no visible wear, but maybe air is somehow leaking in causing a poor vacumn??
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Old 10-27-2010, 08:46 AM
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Arrow

Brosov, on re-using gaskets, & leaks, etc.., possibly..I've found you can add one more life to gaskets with a sealer too (like Permatex, RTV/silicone in the carb will get destroyed by the fuel), but once you add the Permatex, you are likely going to need to replace it the next time around. I print out the gasket sheet from Moyer and think about my plans for the future regarding maintenance & check off x1, x2, etc....the gaskets themselves are not expensive, but it seems silly to pay UPS shipping for only one or two...I get my list together for the ones I know I need, and in addition to that, try to have a spare for anything I might need to take apart & service while sailing (carb bowl, thermostat, carb/manifold flange, reversing gear cover, water pump, etc..) in case one of them doesn't come apart easily and tears.

I haven't quite thought I needed a spare head gasket(s) for example, but when I was little I remember hearing stories about another boat with an Atomic 4 & the Dad & son would replace the head gasket on the fly during the day while sailing between ports, so I guess they carried a few around.

For things like the carb gasket, or t-stat housing, I think I assembled mine last time with Permatex #3 on one side only, that way it would hopefully stick to one piece and come off clean on the other side when taken apart..success remains to be determined.

You might spend $50 on gaskets, but $40 of that is spares sitting in the box ready to go.
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Last edited by sastanley; 10-27-2010 at 02:04 PM. Reason: typos
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:04 AM
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As usual more questions than answers. What is your fuel system set up? Tank, filter, pump, polishing filter??? Have you checked for good fuel flow at the connection to the carb? Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 10-27-2010, 10:01 AM
smosher smosher is offline
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When you take the carb apart make sure you poke through all of the holes, jets, and vents. Just blowing carb cleaner will not unclog some of the deposits.
I use a thin piece of wire.

Steve
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Old 10-27-2010, 01:46 PM
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good suggestions, everyone- thanks. I currently have the fuel system set from tank > filter > pump > carb. I ordered an inline fuel polishing kit from moyer and will put it upstream from the carb ASAP. Meanwhile, I'll give it a shot to clear out any jets with a wire as well as the cleaner. I also just cleaned out the sediment bowl from the fuel pump (it was full of a bunch of crud... but I don't think THAT has been impeding fuel flow, specficially). Anyhoo, I'll report my results after I get back to work on her later today, hopefully. If I still have problems, I figure a carb rebuild kit may be in order, huh?

Thanks!
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Old 10-27-2010, 02:07 PM
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If you found crud in your pump sediment bowl it is possible that has been feeding it to the needle and seat, main jet and all the way to the discharge nozzle.
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:37 PM
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Okay, so I just removed the carb again and noticed that indeed the needle was stuck. And there was a bit of silty "gunk" in the float bowl. Just jostling the body of the carb allowed the needle to drop down as it should.... but I suppose the fact it got stuck is not a good thing and I guess a rebuild kit is needed??

Also, I noticed that the floats themselves had some fluid (fuel, I assume) in them. Not a ton, but I could hear the fluid sloshing around when I shook it. Does this automatically call for replacement? It seems like it still has enough air in them to float and do the job... unless it is a very tempermental and precise mechanism.

After freeing the needle and cleaning everything out again, I reattached it all. I got her to fire using ether, but it died out indicating a continued lost of fuel supply. Carb rebuild kit seems to be the next move, huh?
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Old 10-27-2010, 04:52 PM
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I do not think the floats should have any fluid in them. The needle valve should drop down without any shaking. Is the black tip of the needle valve on the needle valve? Dan S/V Marian Claire
Edit: What is the definition of “cleaning everything out”?

Last edited by Marian Claire; 10-27-2010 at 05:21 PM.
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Old 10-27-2010, 06:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brosov View Post
Okay, so I just removed the carb again and noticed that indeed the needle was stuck. And there was a bit of silty "gunk" in the float bowl. Just jostling the body of the carb allowed the needle to drop down as it should.... but I suppose the fact it got stuck is not a good thing and I guess a rebuild kit is needed??

Also, I noticed that the floats themselves had some fluid (fuel, I assume) in them. Not a ton, but I could hear the fluid sloshing around when I shook it. Does this automatically call for replacement? It seems like it still has enough air in them to float and do the job... unless it is a very tempermental and precise mechanism.

After freeing the needle and cleaning everything out again, I reattached it all. I got her to fire using ether, but it died out indicating a continued lost of fuel supply. Carb rebuild kit seems to be the next move, huh?
Your floats are leaking and will have to be replaced if they have fuel sloshing around in them.

That is your problem right there.
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Old 10-27-2010, 09:49 PM
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I agree with 67 in that the leaking float should be replaced; however I do not think that is the problem at hand. A leaking float would tend to sink or stand lower in the chamber thus letting the needle valve remain open longer than it should thus letting in more fuel, not less. Fuel deficiency is the problem here. It seems that the carb is getting contaminated in some critical passage. The new filter is a step in the right direction. This is not a unique situation. Carburetors all over the fleet are getting "filthified" as ethanol cleans out more and more fuel tanks and delivers the proceeds to carburetors. Multiple filters are our best defence for the time being.
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Old 10-27-2010, 11:32 PM
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Lightbulb

Hanley...very subtle and eloquent statement. I agree 100%. Fortunately for me, as a new Atomic 4 owner, I had a gas tank failure and had every single piece fresh from the tank to the carb when I started this journey.

Brosov, One common trouble shooting technique here is an outboard tank to the fuel pump with fresh fuel, which eliminates any chance of particles/contamination thru the "house system".
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Old 10-28-2010, 02:40 PM
Brosov Brosov is offline
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Good idea re: the outboard fuel tank idea. I'll give that a run. Meanwhile, I think I'm gonna rebuild this carb after all. I need to order the kit, but found inexpensive ones online. The model number I found stamped to the carb is 1374... but that doesn't seem to fit the 5 digit model number I have found elsewhere. Anyone know the typical model # for a late model zenith carb?
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Old 10-28-2010, 09:20 PM
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Thumbs up

Brosov, It may not be the cheapest route always, but to make sure you get the correct parts, just call Ken at the Moyer Marine parts department. The time saved is usually worth the extra few dollars. Moyer is THE resource for Atomic4 parts. (I am in no way affiliated, just a happy customer.)
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"Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
"Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/signaturepics/sigpic3231_6.gif
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Old 10-28-2010, 10:29 PM
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Ditto Shawn's advice.
If you wanna get it right the first time AND get real support AFTER the sale, get it from Moyer!
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:32 AM
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When you buy from Moyer, you know its the right part, many times there's an instruction sheet included. I live in Boston and I usually get the part one day after ordering. Yes it may cost a little more but in the end there's less time and frustration involved. To me thats worth it.

Steve
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Old 10-29-2010, 04:53 PM
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well, folks, sometimes the least expected things emerge to be the problem. I just installed an inline fuel filter purchased from Moyer. After hooking it up, I decided to bypass the upstream fuel lines and use a 1 gallon outboard tank. To my surprise, she started right up and ran like a champ for an hour as I cleaned up!!! Problem solved- now I need to figure out how to gain decent access to my old copper fuel lines and make sure they are unclogged... and more daunting- attempt to siphon 16 gallons of gas out of the tank and attempt to clean it out. Not sure about this one... but I'm just happy to hear her purrr again!!! Thanks for the input, everyone...
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Old 10-29-2010, 05:29 PM
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I recently siphoned my fuel tank out using a squeeze bulb plastic siphon
which originally came with a kerosene stove. I removed 15 gal of fuel
this way in less than 20 min into 3 5 gal cans.

I removed the temp tank gauge and siphoned it out.

I threw a couple of cans of carb cleaner in the tank gauge hole.
let it set a few minutes, then using a piece of hose with a rag tied to
it , again thru the gauge hole, swiped and cleaned along the bottom edge of the tank. My tank was v shaped
and I could access the bottom edge via the gauge.
I then re-siphoned all remaining fuel etc.

Regards,

Ar
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Old 10-29-2010, 07:25 PM
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Before you pump the tank. In post # 1 you said you had fuel thru the pump. With the results from your test the carb is not the problem. I am assuming you gravity fed fuel directly thru the in-line filter and to the carb. What is in-between the pump and the carb in your system? Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 10-30-2010, 10:01 AM
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that is one of the things that has left me scratching my head. Yes- I had good flow through the pump the other day. After cleaning the sediment bowl and screwing it back in, the mechanical fuel pump didn't prime the fuel through. I could pump and pump and not get any fuel flow. I did, however, get pressure built up when I put my finger over the fuel line coming from the pump towards the carb. So, the pump was indeed still working, but at that point I was worried that my problems were now compounded by no fuel flow. I hooked up a 1 gallon tank upstream from the pump and she fired right up! So, yes- I have crud in the tank uptake or in the fuel line somewhere... but the mystery is that initially, this was not the problem as I DID have fuel delivery to the carb before. *scratches head, but happy*.
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Old 10-30-2010, 11:25 AM
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I see. I think. Can you blow air back thru the system from the upstream connection of the pump to the tank? Also check and make sure the vent for the tank is clear. Dan S/V Marian Claire
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:35 PM
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And don't forget to change out those floats - the carb will not operate properly and may cause a fire hazard if they are leaking.
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