Some Comments on Thermostats

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  • Don Moyer
    • Oct 2004
    • 2806

    Some Comments on Thermostats

    By way of background, the original late model factory solution was to use double-action thermostats which start to open and allow some coolant through the block and head as engine temperature moves past 140 degrees, and they then close off the bypass port in the thermostat housing when the engine temperature reaches 180 degrees. In standard late model bypass systems, engine temperature is free to vary between 140 and 180 degrees, depending primarily on the condition of the cooling jackets, temperature of raw water, and the load imposed on the engine.

    Double-action O.E.M. thermostats have become very expensive, and (although still listed in our online catalog) are becoming problematic to keep in stock. We eventually joined others several years ago in offering an aftermarket thermostat that functioned like the O.E.M unit until the source of those thermostats disappeared in the past several months as well.

    At that time we concluded that the most cost effective and reliable solution was to incorporate a single-action thermostat into our kits, using a separate method of regulating the bypass loop. The separate method of providing a bypass restriction for single-action thermostats (to finally answer your question) is because they have no ability to regulate the bypass loop as temperature increases past 180 degrees.

    On our test stand, a spring loaded check valve providing 2 to 3 psi backpressure maintained normal temperature in a raw water cooled configuration using the single-action thermostat provided in our kits (CSTH_01_510). In freshwater cooled engines it’s frequently necessary to fully close the bypass loop when operating at high power settings in warm climates so a manual ball valve is recommended in those cases as well. In an effort to cover both applications, we currently provide a spring loaded check valve and a small manual ball valve in our by-pass restriction kits (product number CSOT_01_61).

    It should be noted that the need to provide a restriction of some kind in the bypass loop is not limited to the single-action concept. Universal themselves realized that unless their bypass type system had a restriction in the bypass loop, many engines would operate hotter than desired. In a technical bulletin from the mid-seventies, they recommended that the 90 degree elbow in the inlet to the thermostat housing be filled with lead and then re-opened by drilling an 1/8” hole in the lead. That technical bulletin was largely ignored in favor of more practical solutions and many Atomic 4s today are already equipped with either a manual ball valve or a spring loaded check valve in the bypass loop.

    Don
  • mikke60
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2007
    • 36

    #2
    Bypass retriction

    I switched over to FWC about 3 seasons ago. I have removed the thermostat from the engine thinking it would run cooler. After getting and reading my new maint. manual I bought from Don, I have come to realize my actions are what caused my higher operating temps, especially at higher throttle.I will be reinstalling the themo as well as a restriction for the bypass(which I also removed).
    OK here is my question. How much hose can I add the the system without adverse affects on the pump? I would like to mount the valve to restrict the bypass so that I can regulate it from the cockpit.Prob.about 5 feet of hose total. Thanks, Mike

    Comment

    • hanleyclifford
      Afourian MVP
      • Mar 2010
      • 6990

      #3
      The problem is not in the length of the hose but in the vertical rise. It will be difficult to keep such a line purged (or burped). Why not look into a valve you can mount low near the engine but operate from the cockpit? http://www.stcvalve.com/Process_Valves.htm#43

      Comment

      • Boilerbob7
        Frequent Contributor
        • Oct 2010
        • 9

        #4
        Thermostat, Holley Mfg. Co., 9A6 140

        This is really confusing. I see several thermostats. Which one would replace the one with the above identifaction numbers and letters? My current one worked, but it's really corroded and I'd like to replace, update, or whatever it takes to have good operation.

        Comment

        • ndutton
          Afourian MVP
          • May 2009
          • 9601

          #5
          Assuming you have the original Holley 3 spring thermostat in a late model head MMI's replacements are this one or this one. The second link has a new housing if yours needs replacement.

          Back to your original thermostat. The Holley 3 spring has been referred to as the Holy grail of thermostats. Why not remove it, give it an overnight vinegar soak, perform a stove top test with a meat thermometer and reinstall it? If the metal is still intact and it's functioning properly your stat is as good as it gets.
          Neil
          1977 Catalina 30
          San Pedro, California
          prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
          Had my hands in a few others

          Comment

          • 67c&ccorv
            Afourian MVP
            • Dec 2008
            • 1559

            #6
            So, I take it there are no problems with the supply of early model A-4 thermostats?

            Comment

            • ndutton
              Afourian MVP
              • May 2009
              • 9601

              #7
              Originally posted by 67c&ccorv View Post
              So, I take it there are no problems with the supply of early model A-4 thermostats?
              Nope, available from MMI here.
              Neil
              1977 Catalina 30
              San Pedro, California
              prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
              Had my hands in a few others

              Comment

              • Boilerbob7
                Frequent Contributor
                • Oct 2010
                • 9

                #8
                Originally posted by ndutton View Post
                Assuming you have the original Holley 3 spring thermostat in a late model head MMI's replacements are this one or this one. The second link has a new housing if yours needs replacement.

                Back to your original thermostat. The Holley 3 spring has been referred to as the Holy grail of thermostats. Why not remove it, give it an overnight vinegar soak, perform a stove top test with a meat thermometer and reinstall it? If the metal is still intact and it's functioning properly your stat is as good as it gets.
                Senility kicked in. I put it in water on the stove, got distracted, end of story.

                Comment

                • wrapper
                  Senior Member
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 15

                  #9
                  Moyer thermostat question

                  In 2005 I purchased CSTH_03.3_412. It has worked fine. I see now you are selling only CSTH_01_512.

                  My questions:

                  What is the difference?

                  What part number should the replacement thermostat be?

                  Should I install (CSOT_01_61) Cooling system bypass kit ? Engine has run well with your new thermostat and housing.

                  Comment

                  • keithems
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2008
                    • 376

                    #10
                    just finishing up a4 r, r, and r....machine shop reinstalled my late model double acting thermostat for me....may have put it in upside down....

                    anyhoo -- removed it last nite because water temp never rises on gauge....thermo was on its side....the flange which holds the spring which is held on with a circlip [or eclip?] was gone....

                    so....

                    1. is it likely stuck somewhere in the cooling system, blocking something?....not that i'm gonna r, r, and r the a4 again....but i do wonder... [water flow out the exhaust seems normal]

                    2. any ideas on a fix? can i just replace it with a washer and another circlip / eclip?

                    k
                    keithems
                    [1976 c&c 30 mk 1]

                    Comment

                    • Raymond
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 18

                      #11
                      Hello, all,

                      This past summer I had noticed a bit of white steam in the exhaust so decided to take a closer look. It appears that there are a couple of hot spots on the exhaust manifold; one at the forward end (pic 1) and one at the aft end (pic 2). I removed the thermostat (pic 3) and put it into a pot of water on the stove. It worked, but I did not think to check the temperature that it opened at. Pics 4 and 5 show the thermostat housing full of crud/mud/gunk.

                      Since the thermostat worked, should I just put it back in or replace with a new one? I can clean the crud/mud/gunk from the housing area, but is that just the tip of the iceberg?

                      Any and all thoughts are appreciated. Thanks in advance.

                      Raymond
                      Attached Files

                      Comment

                      • ndutton
                        Afourian MVP
                        • May 2009
                        • 9601

                        #12
                        Sadly, those hot spots are normal although you might be the first one to report a spot at the rear end. We haven't determined it to be a remedy but consider replumbing the manifold following the Thatch modification, it can't hurt. Details found here.
                        Neil
                        1977 Catalina 30
                        San Pedro, California
                        prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
                        Had my hands in a few others

                        Comment

                        • sastanley
                          Afourian MVP
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 6986

                          #13
                          Raymond,

                          In addition to Neil's suggestions, I think I might also go for a full water jacket clean out..at least a muratic acid flush followed by a few vinegar flushes..The rest of the water jacket will look exactly like your t-stat housing/head, and there will likely be lots of muck inside the block near cylinder #4.

                          Your motor looks to be in pretty good shape!

                          I am going to make a guess that it is in a Catalina 30, based on the intake location, the type of access I see in the pictures, and the battery tray directly adjacent.
                          Last edited by sastanley; 11-07-2012, 11:25 PM. Reason: fix up some bad gammar & sphellign errors :)
                          -Shawn
                          "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109
                          "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!)
                          sigpic

                          Comment

                          • edwardc
                            Afourian MVP
                            • Aug 2009
                            • 2491

                            #14
                            Pay particular attention to the ring-shaped boss inside the thermostat housing. The two-stage thermostat has to seal against this to control the flow through the bypass. Is the surface is deeply eroded, you might want to consider replacing it with one of Don's bronze castings.

                            Soak the thermostat in vinegar overnight and scrub it with an old toothbrush. It'll clean right up.
                            @(^.^)@ Ed
                            1977 Pearson P-323 "Dolce Vita"
                            with rebuilt Atomic-4

                            sigpic

                            Comment

                            • Raymond
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2009
                              • 18

                              #15
                              Thanks

                              You guys are great! Thanks for the advice.

                              Shawn, very astute observation. She is a Catalina 30, hull number 120. I bought her new in 1975. She has spent most of her life on Saginaw Bay, Lake Huron. In 1977 I took her down the Mississippi and as far as the Bahamas; brought her back to Saginaw Bay in 1981. Four years ago, I started to treat her to heated winter storage. That has been terrific for various projects.

                              Thanks again.

                              Comment

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