Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Classified Ads > Wanted to Buy - Engines and Engine Parts

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-18-2021, 12:34 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Looking for Late Model Manifold

I'm looking for a a Late Model A4 Manifold that's in pretty good shape. Mine is showing some significant external flaking and it's only a matter of time.

Before buying a new one I'd like to try to find a used one.
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-18-2021, 05:08 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Be careful on used manifolds

One thing to be careful of regarding a used manifold is checking the threads for the exhaust flange. I has been my experience (2 used manifold) that the threads were sketchy. If they have been repaired via helicoil(s), I would pass and just buy a new one or a used one with very threaded exhaust holes.

Be aware with the threaded hole if someone installs a helicoil but messes-up drilling/tapping on the top hole it could penetrate the water passage. I had one of those, and replaced the beat-up helicoil with a fresh one, used the MMI stud kit and high temp exhaust sealant. Ken told me to just replace it, but I thought I could make it work.

Well, it still leaked. I tighten it, it still leaked, etc. Now it was a small weeping, but this if a fresh rebuilt... so any leaks are too many and I didn't catch on the run-in.

The solution was going through the pain of replacing it with a new MMI manifold in a very tight engine compartment. I should have listened to Ken-the-Wise and just bought the new one. 20/20 hindsight. Wait, is it too soon to reference 2020?

Now the MMI manifold had its own issues. I did check the threads and they were tight and opted to purchase to two sets of studs... trying to learn from my early penny foolish moment. It was lucky I did.

What I discovered that the threads in the brand new MMI manifold were not tapped deep enough to bottom out studs so the nuts were not able to tighten down on the exhaust flange. Unfortunately, I discovered this at the boat during the re-install. Of course, I had a set of bottom taps at home, but could only find taper taps in-town at the marina on the Saturday.

Ultimately, I just modified and sacrificed one set of studs and brute forced them to work as taps. Even then, I barely got the stud deep enough to mount the flange. It's working now, but it took over 6 hours to get it back together.

That reminds me I need to give Ken that feedback. He owes me a set of studs. ;^)
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 03-19-2021 at 04:21 PM. Reason: typo, always typos
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ronstory For This Useful Post:
CRUX (03-19-2021), TimBSmith (03-18-2021)
  #3   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-18-2021, 05:26 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Excellent advice Ron. I appreciate it. I did find a new one from Barr Marine. I got it with shipping for less than $300.

What I'm worried about is getting the old bolts out. They are rusted to the manifold that has just started to shed metal layers off of the surface. I just noticed this last week and was shocked. One of the nuts is actually growing a split. Yikes...! It might take me 12 hours to do the job.

On an off topic note, I replaced my rear oil seal last fall. I bought the puller from Moyer but could not use it as I didn't have enough clearance behind my engine even as I was on the hard and had pulled the prop shaft back. It took me 13 hours to get the 5 bolts out and 5 to get it all back in. I was lying on the block working one-handed. It was the worst experience in my life...lol... But, I now have no oil leaks.
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-18-2021, 05:50 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Nice find. I would consider adding the stud kit.

The 3 side bolts shouldn't be too bad with a good soak of pb-blaster or the similar.

The bolts on the flange are going to be a "dog of the female gender".

If the flange bolt heads are intact, I would just try and soak them to see if they will loosen with a bit of heat. If that is no-joy, since you are replacing the manifold I might be able to just twist off the heads with a 6 sided socket and breaker bar... or if you have one an electric impact wench.

Then just get a block of wood and hammer and tap off the flange. Check the the condition of the flange, and if it looks sketchy... this is then a perfect time to replace it and the exhaust stack.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 47.142.136.120
Old 03-18-2021, 07:29 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,353
Thanks: 48
Thanked 759 Times in 556 Posts
When the day comes start the engine and run it until it gets up to temperature. While the engine is running go after the bolts. The heat + vibration will help loosen the bolts. Careful not to burn yourself.

ex TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-18-2021, 07:38 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
When the day comes start the engine and run it until it gets up to temperature. While the engine is running go after the bolts. The heat + vibration will help loosen the bolts. Careful not to burn yourself.

ex TRUE GRIT

Most excellent suggestion. That's exactly what I'll try first.
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-18-2021, 07:41 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory View Post
Nice find. I would consider adding the stud kit.

The 3 side bolts shouldn't be too bad with a good soak of pb-blaster or the similar.

The bolts on the flange are going to be a "dog of the female gender".

If the flange bolt heads are intact, I would just try and soak them to see if they will loosen with a bit of heat. If that is no-joy, since you are replacing the manifold I might be able to just twist off the heads with a 6 sided socket and breaker bar... or if you have one an electric impact wench.

Then just get a block of wood and hammer and tap off the flange. Check the the condition of the flange, and if it looks sketchy... this is then a perfect time to replace it and the exhaust stack.

When you say the flange, do you mean the metal part with two bolts that holds the beginning of the exhaust pipe water lift to the right end of the manifold? If so, I redid my exhaust two years ago and it has new bolts those should be no problem. I don't have an electric impact wrench but have been needing and excuse to buy one. Maybe it's time to head to Harbor Freight.
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #8   IP: 47.142.136.120
Old 03-18-2021, 08:18 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is online now
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,353
Thanks: 48
Thanked 759 Times in 556 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JOHN COOKSON View Post
When the day comes start the engine and run it until it gets up to temperature. While the engine is running go after the bolts. The heat + vibration will help loosen the bolts. Careful not to burn yourself.

ex TRUE GRIT
This procedure also helps when loosing a temperature sending unit.
Reply With Quote
  #9   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-18-2021, 08:20 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Yes, the flange is the chunk of metal that the metal exhaust riser screws into. If you got those bolts out in the last few years, you are golden.

I would still recommend the stud kit, it makes installation easier since you can hang the exhaust on the studs and not wrestle with it while trying to get a bolt threaded. But if you already have experience doing the bolt method, that may be easier and no waiting for a stud kit.

So perhaps you just need paint.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 03-18-2021 at 09:10 PM. Reason: typos
Reply With Quote
  #10   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-18-2021, 10:40 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ronstory View Post
... you can hang the exhaust on the studs and not wrestle with it ...

So perhaps you just need paint.
I already have paint. I'm not sure I understand how the studs work. I looked for a diagram or a 'Tech Tip' and didn't see anything. How do you use those T-bolts?
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #11   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-19-2021, 03:07 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
The studs are installed semi-permanently into the threads of the exhaust manifold holes. They go in just like the bolts, but with a threaded end versus the head of the bolts you are currently using. You then slide the flange over the studs and tighten down with a nut and lockwasher.

See the pic, it should be pretty clear how they work.

https://moyermarine.com/product/exha...exht_05-2_321/

Not sure why you mentioned t-bolts, I never talked about them and they are a very different animal and purpose.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-19-2021, 03:52 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Sure, I know that photo. I said "T" well, because they are "T" shaped, not being sure I know the technical name for them.

I'll look at it when I'm down there and it should make sense. I'm just seeing 3 sets of threads on each one and wondering how it all bolts up. Again, I need to put a fresh eye on it when I disassemble mine. Thanks for the input. It's valuable.
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RobH2 For This Useful Post:
TimBSmith (03-19-2021)
  #13   IP: 209.6.152.28
Old 03-19-2021, 04:18 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Brookline, MA USA
Posts: 67
Thanks: 982
Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts
Picture is misleading to untrained eye...the studs seem to overlap...

The studs are actually just threaded on both sides. There is an optical illusion in the photo because of the overlapping studs foreground and background. I had the the same thought when I first looked at the photo. How in the heck will a "T" shaped stud work? : )
__________________
Tim Smith
Oasis
Pearson 30
1974, Number 572
Boston, MA USA
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-19-2021, 04:43 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimBSmith View Post
The studs are actually just threaded on both sides. There is an optical illusion in the photo because of the overlapping studs foreground and background. I had the the same thought when I first looked at the photo. How in the heck will a "T" shaped stud work? : )
That's hilarious!!! They are straight bolts with two threads, not 'Ts'... Now I see it. How funny. Yes, that photo could have been better thought out for sure.

I get it. Sure, makes complete sense now. Thanks for making me feel unobservant. Now, looking at the photos, it's obvious. It's like seeing Jesus in the potato chip. Once you see it, you can't "unsee" it...lol...
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to RobH2 For This Useful Post:
TimBSmith (03-20-2021)
  #15   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-19-2021, 08:36 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Yes, those simple things... and pic that show three when you only need two doesn't help.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to ronstory For This Useful Post:
TimBSmith (03-20-2021)
  #16   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-20-2021, 11:07 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Well, I've gotten pretty far off topic here. Sorry moderators. I'll wrap this up.

I put the new manifold on today. I did what all good boys are supposed to do when faced with a new mechanical task that you haven't done and has lots of unknowns and went to Harbor Freight and bought things...lol... specifically, I bought a Bauer 3/8 inch impact wrench for $100.

That sucker pulled the bolts right off of my flange and manifold. The front bolt nearest the flywheel was so rusted that the nut was sheeting off. I had no idea what might happen. I actually used a hammer and drove a smaller socket onto it to get some grab and the impact hammer went to work. It worked too well as the rod twisted off and came out with the nut.

Now I was faced with using a bolt extractor to get the tip that was left in the block. In a spot with limited space I couldn't get the pilot bit into the hole at a 90-degree angle. "Crap," I thought. So I stuck a sharp pick into the hole to see how deep the lingering bolt that twisted off was. To my surprise, the hole was nearly clean and as it gently pushed in, the pick went in and water started draining out. I guess that bolt had corroded completely away.

So, I dressed that hole with a tap and got some stainless all-thread and screwed it in. I hope that the fact water came out is not a massive problem. I'm assuming that would be normal. But, I don't know.

Anyway, I got the manifold back on and torqued the 3 main bolts to 20lbs like I read on the site. Tomorrow I'll connect everything else. But all in all, it was not too bad of a task. I'm sooooo glad I bought that torque wrench. It was amazing and now I have one so that's not bad either. I should have bought it when I was removing the rear oil seal bolts. It would have saved the years of my life I lost on that job.

Lest you think that I abuse my engine and don't take care of it, I actually do. I don't know how I let my manifold get that far without noticing. I'm a little embarrassed about that. Anyway, the new one should last me a good long time and I'll keep a better eye on it. Thanks for the encouragement.

Rob
Attached Images
 
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-21-2021, 12:30 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Congrats on job well done! As for the electric impact drivers, they are simply awesome. I was always partial to the pneumatic versions, but these new lithium battery powered are nearly just as good.

I have a Ryobi that I just keep on the boat now. I really feel that just showing the impact driver to the stubborn bolt makes it just give up.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR

Last edited by ronstory; 03-21-2021 at 12:31 PM. Reason: typo, always typos
Reply With Quote
  #18   IP: 155.186.122.195
Old 03-21-2021, 12:47 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,414
Thanks: 525
Thanked 678 Times in 459 Posts
Exclamation Caution

Ron, lock washers should not be used on studs or bolts going into a water jacket or oil galley. The liquid will move up the threads and leak out of the gap in the lock washer, use flat washers for a "seal". In some cases a "star-lock" can be used, however I have not had a problem with a properly torqued flat washer ever coming loose.

RobH2, nice work and perseverance while contorted.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dave Neptune For This Useful Post:
TimBSmith (03-21-2021)
  #19   IP: 173.64.90.144
Old 03-21-2021, 08:53 PM
RobH2's Avatar
RobH2 RobH2 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 303
Thanks: 2
Thanked 8 Times in 5 Posts
Thanks Ron and Dave for the encouragement and the advice.

Job finished. I went the extra mile. That nice new manifold made my head look sad so I made everyone happy. It was a lot of work for just one weekend but it's done and I feel good about it. See my updated photo mosaic.

Till next time...
Attached Images
 
__________________
Rob--

"Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little."

1968 C&C Invader 36' / Late Model Atomic4
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to RobH2 For This Useful Post:
Surcouf (03-26-2021), TimBSmith (03-21-2021)
  #20   IP: 155.186.122.195
Old 03-21-2021, 09:11 PM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Lake Arrowhead Ca.
Posts: 4,414
Thanks: 525
Thanked 678 Times in 459 Posts
Thumbs up

Excellent! Looks good too.

Dave Neptune
Reply With Quote
  #21   IP: 67.169.215.221
Old 03-22-2021, 05:31 PM
ronstory's Avatar
ronstory ronstory is online now
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 364
Thanks: 94
Thanked 179 Times in 133 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Neptune View Post
Ron, lock washers should not be used on studs or bolts going into a water jacket or oil galley. The liquid will move up the threads and leak out of the gap in the lock washer, use flat washers for a "seal". In some cases a "star-lock" can be used, however I have not had a problem with a properly torqued flat washer ever coming loose.

RobH2, nice work and perseverance while contorted.

Dave Neptune
Dave--

My comment above regard lock washers was related to exhaust flange only. With a healthy manifold, the studs should do not penetrate the coolant passage. However, I had a "special" manifold that came with all-thread as a stud and nut on the *inside* of the passage. (sigh)

I should have just thrown it away, but tried to save $400... when I had already spend $3k on parts and machining. Penny wise, Dollar foolish.

Agree on the flat washers for rest of fasteners with liquid penetration... just not the exhaust flange.
__________________
Thanks,
Ron
Portland, OR
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ronstory For This Useful Post:
Dave Neptune (03-22-2021), TimBSmith (03-22-2021)
  #22   IP: 209.6.152.28
Old 03-22-2021, 11:41 PM
TimBSmith TimBSmith is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Brookline, MA USA
Posts: 67
Thanks: 982
Thanked 21 Times in 12 Posts
Clarification on flange bolts and washers please...

Re reading this. I have not used studs yet for flange, I am using bolts and the PO has lock washers with gaps on both bolts. Interestingly, before the winter break, on last engine run after new hot section install, I had been troubleshooting wispy exhaust leak(tough to isolate) that is near the starboard side flange bolt head. I now wonder if the lock washer is one of the problems. I have tightened bolts and hot section assembly, did not run after adjustments. This is what it looked like before winterized. Best viewed high def at .25 speed. :12 best freeze point.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Fe51MqVN7p7DgJSw7


p.s.
I also had a slight water droplet above the injection point. Was able to adjust both the nipple going into the flange, and the nipple going into the injection point- will be testing as soon as I de-winterize engine.
__________________
Tim Smith
Oasis
Pearson 30
1974, Number 572
Boston, MA USA
Reply With Quote
  #23   IP: 167.165.222.44
Old 03-25-2021, 04:03 PM
joematrix1013 joematrix1013 is offline
Frequent Contributor
 
Join Date: Feb 2021
Location: Chicago
Posts: 5
Thanks: 2
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
$3500 for the whol kit and kaboodle

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobH2 View Post
I'm looking for a a Late Model A4 Manifold that's in pretty good shape. Mine is showing some significant external flaking and it's only a matter of time.

Before buying a new one I'd like to try to find a used one.
$3500.00 (motor-wiring-controls-gauges-3 solar panels-2 batteries-exhaust-fuel tank)

My A4 is still in my 1977 Pearson 28 currently. My P28 is in the water at River City Marina in Chicago. I have lived aboard for over 4 years. Due to Covid, I got stranded on the river without a chance to get her out on the lake as I usually do during the summer. I confess I neglected to run the motor periodically throughout the summer. I was involved in a number of repairs and since I was dock-locked for the summer, running the motor in was the last thing on my mind. I know better.
> When I winterized the motor this last fall, it was rough running. Since I planned to repower this year anyway, I didn't address and servicing. I can report that in the 4 years that I have owned the sailboat, I have not had any issues with the motor. I sail into and off of my mooring can. So, I rarely go through a tank of gas in a season. However, since the boat stays in the water year-round, I motor 10 miles up the river in the Spring, and 10 miles down in the Fall. These "bridge runs", as they are lovingly referred to, can take up to 6 hours. Forward, reverse, full power, and sipping gas. It can be a real test of a motor's ability, and I have never had an issue. The motor runs at hull speed at 180 deg, no smoking...ect. I believe that the motor is original, so 1977.
> I am repowering to electric, so I will include the fuel tank, gauges, controls, wiring....complete.
> I hope to be granted permission to haul-out at 31st street harbor in Chicago this Spring. If I do get permission, we can arrange to part ways with the motor at the harbor. If I do not get the chance to haul-out, we can plan to make the transfer at River City Marina.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
late, manifold, model

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Manifold Fitting Broke off cfergu22 Exhaust System 4 09-30-2020 10:28 AM
Busted manifold stud sastanley Cooling System 83 04-13-2015 08:15 PM
Early and late model distributor mounting options Marian Claire Ignition System 2 03-28-2012 10:21 AM
Manifold and Muriatic Acid Donchnz General Interest 5 05-25-2011 11:47 AM
late model manifold to early model breweraz Exhaust System 2 09-14-2010 08:50 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2021 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved