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  #26   IP: 68.104.86.117
Old 10-01-2010, 10:27 AM
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BS-
I did a measurement yesterday and you've got just over three inches between the starter and engine block.
Good luck. Let us know...
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Old 10-01-2010, 11:32 AM
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I did not have to remove the starter. Again, it was tight but I was able to get the elbow installed (little by little)with an open end wrench. There are probably some brass elbows configured better than others for this, location of wrench flats, over all outside dimensions, etc. I just used one I had on hand.

Mark
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Old 10-01-2010, 05:09 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
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Acid Flush With Vinegar?

Can I use vinegar to (successfully) acid flush my A4?
If so how long should I leave it in the engine?
Would leaving it in for a week be detrimental?

Thanks everybody.

TRUE GRIT
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  #29   IP: 68.104.86.117
Old 10-01-2010, 07:38 PM
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Can I use vinegar to (successfully) acid flush my A4?
Yes. It's a little less effective, but yes, you certainly can.

If so how long should I leave it in the engine?
I leave it for 24-48 hours.

Would leaving it in for a week be detrimental?
No, not really. I'd think after about 2 days though, you're not getting any more positive results.
If you're gonna do a week, do 2-3 treatments during that timeframe.
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Old 10-01-2010, 09:10 PM
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I must say that I've done both the vinegar flush and the muriatic acid flush, and the muriatic flush was by far more effective.

This is how I did it:

I got two 5-gallon buckets. I mixed up a quart of muriatic acid to 4 gallons of water. The sticky says 1/3 of a gallon to five gallons of water, but that's just a 1:15 solution, and if you use 1 qt in a 1:15 solution you get a total of 16 quarts, or four gallons of total solution.

I rigged the other five gallon bucket over the stern with lines to keep it right at the exhaust output. When I started the engine I waited a few seconds before putting the bucket under the exhaust to make sure I was catching solution rather than just water. I thought about using red food dye in the acid solution so that I'd know when it was coming through, but I forgot to bring it along. Still, it was pretty obvious when the solution starting coming out, as it was awfully dark and nasty.

A box of Arm & Hammer baking soda is one pound, so I put half the box in my first catch bucket to neutralize whatever came out of the engine. A good thing I did, too, as when I was done pumping in the solution and brought that bucket inboard, it was boiling and foaming like crazy as the soda neutralized the acid.

As the solution sat in the engine, I brought the first bucket inboard and set it aside, then rigged the bucket I'd used for the solution as the second catch bucket, after first dumping its dregs into the first catch bucket.

When I fired up the engine again, the outflow was if anything even darker and nastier than before, but by the time the bucket was getting near full the outflow had cleared up to where I thought the flush was done.

I ended up with two 5 gallon buckets of the nastiest looking water I'd ever seen. There was no way I could just dump it into the creek. What to do?

Luckily, I'd read up on the reaction of baking soda (NaHCO3) and muriatic acid (actually a 30% solution of hydrochloric acid, or HCl), and it goes like this:

NaHCO3 + HCl ->
NaCl (table salt) + H2CO3 (carbonic acid) ->
NaCl + H2O + CO2

Basically what I had was a very fizzy salt solution and dirty water. I dumped it into a toilet at the marina, so that it would go to a water treatment plant where they know what to do with salt water and dirt.

The only downside of the entire procedure is that muriatic acid is nasty, and actually smokes when you open the bottle . Mine came in a plastic 1-quart bottle like bleach. It was much nastier than bleach to behold.

Still, if you dump it into the 4-gallon bucket of water and keep your face upwind, there's no problem. Once it's into the water you're OK, but I'd still keep my distance from it as much as possible. Seems to be pretty active even at that dilution.

All in all a pretty simple procedure, as long as one is careful. I think it's a lot more effective than the vinegar flush, too.
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:07 PM
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Nice work and good synopsis BS.

I had a similar experience with the acid flush except that I was on the hard, so I was hanging the bucket to keep from spraying on the neighboring Island Piglet's winter cover.
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Old 10-01-2010, 10:21 PM
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Island Piglet?

Shawn - I do hope that you guys in your neck of the woods don't say that while on board!? Regards, Hanley
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Old 10-02-2010, 05:20 PM
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Haha..Hanley, only if the owner is out of earshot.
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Old 10-02-2010, 06:29 PM
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Commercial fishing protocol

Shawn - Actually I was refering to the word itself. When I first stepped onto a commercial fishing vessel as a newbie I was given a no-no list: 1) never turn a hatch cover or a bucket upside down on the deck, 2) never piss on the deck, 3) if anyone comes looking for the captain you do not know anything about his whereabouts, and 4) never utter the "P" word (or any of it's conjunctions or derivatives) while on board. Don't know if it worked, but we didn't sink! Regards, Hanley
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Old 10-03-2010, 12:53 PM
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I had a look at that 1/8" flexible hose, and the diameter of the fitting is just too small. It looks to be only about a literal 1/8", which I don't think would pass enough water to do the job.

Next plan is to see if a short 1/8" nipple, even a closer, with a small 1/8" street el can be rotated in there. It looks like it might fit, though it will probably be a long, slow, painful rotation.
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  #36   IP: 24.152.131.220
Old 10-03-2010, 01:21 PM
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Balty,
Why the aversion to removing the starter to install these fittings? Once installed you'll never have to do it again and by removing the starter now you stand a better chance of a reliable, leak free installation.

Just wondering.
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  #37   IP: 76.106.6.207
Old 10-03-2010, 06:35 PM
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I have an aversion to touching things that are working perfectly in order to get to another part, if it's at all possible to avoid. If there's room in there to rotate a 1/8" street el, I'm going to do it even if it takes an hour to get it seated (which I don't think it will).

I'm not worried about getting a leak-free installation; if I can't screw in a 1/8" fitting so that it doesn't leak, I have no business taking off the starter in the first place.
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  #38   IP: 68.46.137.140
Old 07-23-2011, 08:56 AM
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I am planning to acid flush the engine today while I am on my mooring. Is it environmentally safe to allow the acid solution to flow out the exhaust and into the water? Should i run some baking soda through the engine after letting the acid sit for 15 min to neutralize the acid in the engine?
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Old 07-23-2011, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
I am planning to acid flush the engine today while I am on my mooring. Is it environmentally safe to allow the acid solution to flow out the exhaust and into the water? Should i run some baking soda through the engine after letting the acid sit for 15 min to neutralize the acid in the engine?
It is best if you can catch the solution as it comes out the exhaust.
Add baking soda to that to neutralize the acid.

No need for baking soda thru the engine. Just flush really well.
You may want to consider doing the PRESSURE FLUSH after the acid flush.
Many find that the acid flush breaks loose crud that finds its way to little spots where they get hung up and cause cooling issues later.
See http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5486
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Acid Flush Procedure 1.pdf (9.6 KB, 1623 views)
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  #40   IP: 68.46.137.140
Old 07-23-2011, 09:47 AM
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Thanks for the feedback. When performing the acid flush, can i simply remove the hose (while keeping the intake valve closed) for the raw water intake and insert it in the acid/water bucket? What is the need for the "t" fitting?
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  #41   IP: 24.136.67.99
Old 07-23-2011, 11:55 AM
Dave Neptune Dave Neptune is offline
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Thumbs up My way

There is a better way if you have the access and a pump.!!
I too use a bucket with the 30% concentration but I use a circulating pump, my procedure is as follows.
First I warm the engine as the flushing solution will work better with a bit of temp. After the engine is warm disconnect at the pump or "tee" fitting which ever is easier and hook the circulating (pond or centrfugal of some sort) to the "tee" fitting. Then disconnect the exit hose on the manifold and use another piece of hose to go from the "exit fitting" back into the bucket. Turn on the pump and watch the descalling begin. I leave it on for about ten minutes or so or until the solution STOPS getting darker. Then dump the bucket into another for proper disposal and refil the bucket with fresh water and a little baking soda and run the pump again to flush a bit. After that I just hook the cooling lines back up and run the engine for a bit to finish the flushing.
Circulating the acid solution for a bit really makes a differance in how clean the block gets.

Dave Neptune
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  #42   IP: 67.168.204.208
Old 07-10-2012, 02:09 PM
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plumbing fittings

where do you buy all those fancy fittings?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadnsky View Post
First time I heard plumbing fittings called fancy!
Yeah, you nailed it.
The 6" nipple (I love writing that word!) has a ball valve (yeah that is fancy) on it so I can "blast" the fresh water thru.
(Luckily, my marina has really good pressure on our fresh water supply.)
Anyway, I flushed out the aft water jackets (3& 4 cyls) then move to the forward block drain and do cylinders 1&2.
The crap exits out the Thermostat housing (the thermostat is removed) thru a hose to a bucket that I filter to see what I caught!
Then, finally I move to the manifold. Intake forward and output is aft.

In the pic, the GREEN hose is the incoming pressure water. The CLEAR hose is the outlet hose going to the bucket.
You can see the crud thru the clear hose while you're doing this. Sorta like a "colon blow" for the engine...

Also, while I had the thermostat out I cleaned it up with vinegar and did the hot-water-in-the-pan test.
Kinda like being in Jr High Science class again...
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:59 PM
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Thanks for these instructions and wonderful photos.

I am a little confused about what acid concentration is specified, although probably the exact concentration isn't very important. It looks like the intent is to get a 2% HCl solution. (?) Which you would get approximately by using laboratory-grade concentrated HCl, which is about 36-37%. This is the stuff that fumes when you open the cap and will corrode any metal stored within about a foot of the bottle. Even for just a few days. Swimming-pool muriatic acid from Home Depot is about 14% HCl, so it would take twice as much to get a 2% solution. It isn't so close to saturation, so it doesn't actively fume, but it will emit some HCl gas.

In any case, unless you have an acid storage cabinet, I would plan to just buy as much as you will use one time and don't try to keep it for next season. And DON'T leave it next to your toolbox.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:42 PM
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toddster..yeah...swimming pool muratic acid.

I've always diluted it about 3 parts water to 1 part muratic acid, which is about $8 gallon at my local Lowe's.

I do not store it on board..it is actually in a bin in the back yard with my gasoline...although it is probably safer than some of the other chemicals I am currently storing in my garage...
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:20 PM
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Er... no. Don't store mineral acids (oxidizers) with organic solvents (fuel). That's a formula for an explosion.
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:34 PM
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Aren't acids reducers, not oxidizers?
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Kingman View Post
where do you buy all those fancy fittings?
Uhhh, actually... right here on this site.

Product No. - CSOT_02_71
http://www.moyermarine.com/cgi-bin/s...rebuilder.html
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
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Aren't acids reducers, not oxidizers?
Sorry for sliding off topic. It depends on what you're reacting. Most mineral acids are strong oxidizers. HCl is kind of in the middle. It probably won't react directly with gasoline. It's more likely to react with something to make hydrogen gas which is explosive. Just a knee-jerk rule of thumb they teach to freshmen... store acids, bases, and organics in separate lockers.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:07 PM
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Roger...thanks..I figured outside was better than inside!
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Old 07-11-2012, 04:23 PM
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my first acid flush today...piece a cake

i did my first acid flush today..heres a novice's take on the procedure...easy and nothing negative ....cept for the crap comin out the exhaust...and a noticeable increase in water exiting the exhaust(which is why we're doin this in the first place). i performed this because my engine was runnin hot under load..about 180 or just short of 180..granted the air temp here in r.i. has been around 90 and the bay temp is about 75 now...im motorin around tonite to c if it made a difference.
the procedure itself is a piece of cake..all i did is remove the raw water intake hose from the seacock(after making sure the seacock was closed), insert a 3/4" hose barb into the raw water hose, insert the other end of the barb into a piece of hose extension, stick the free end of the hose barb into a bucket of 5gal of water to 1/3gal (appox. 42.6 oz) of muriatic acid which i bought a gallon of it in a hardware store for 8 bucks),clamp off the bypass hose before the thermostat, turn the engine on and when the 5gal mix was gone i shut the engine off, had a beer, and 15 min later, reattach the raw water intake to the seacock, turn the engine on and flush the solution out of the engine ...you shoulda seen the brown gunk comin out..once the effluent was clear..i was good to go....with a noticeable increase in the volume of water comin out the exhaust....tonite ill c if it made a difference in a lowering the temp....took all of 30 minutes including cleanup...
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