Return to the home page...

Go Back   Moyer Marine Atomic 4 Community - Home of the Afourians > Discussion Topics > Troubleshooting

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1   IP: 50.253.249.57
Old 08-18-2019, 11:46 AM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Exclamation Won't start at all now!

Long, long list of problems with this boat and engine. Put my boat in the water in May. Got the engine running long enough to get it into my slip. However, it ran horrible and stalled out during the 2 minute trip through the marina. I haven't had much time this season to work on the engine. I put in new spark plugs. I originally gapped them to .035 but then changed it to .025 after a recommendation from the mechanic here at my marina. I also took the carburetor off and cleaned it out. It was gummed up but overall looked really good on the inside. Put it all together and back on and followed the manufacturers instructions on resetting and it still wouldn't start. Took the carburetor off to take it up to the marina mechanic and the carb had water in it. So I disconnected the fuel line and am pulling gas from a small gas can. Someone recommended that I check the timing. So I pulled the distributor to inspect it. (I wish now that I hadn't because I have since read in the manual that you should never need to pull the distributor out)
I bought the timing tech video from Don and followed his instruction. I'm still not getting it to start or even try to start. Its just cranking, no firing. I checked to make sure the plugs are getting spark and they are. Any recommendations on what to try next? I tried putting gas in the throat of the carb to start and nothing. I tried putting a little gas in 2 of the cylinders and nothing.
I'm going to go through the timing procedure again now because at one point in the video when Don is putting the distributor back in the hole he says oops thats one tooth over. So maybe I didn't get it put back in the correct position?! Would that slight of an off placement cause it to not start at all? Thanks for all your help guys
Reply With Quote
  #2   IP: 71.38.107.125
Old 08-18-2019, 12:03 PM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Wow, where to start?

First, do you have points or EI?
Do you know the procedure to set the distro at TDC (Top Dead Center)?
(See attached doc)
What spark plugs did you put in?
(I'm not sure the advice to gap your plugs at .025 is wise but we'll get to that later)
Are you CERTAIN that the plug wires are in the correct firing order?

Also, do you have the Moyer Manual?
Attached Images
File Type: pdf Finding Top Dead Center.pdf (9.7 KB, 948 views)
File Type: pdf Troubleshooting lack of spark.pdf (13.0 KB, 937 views)
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
  #3   IP: 50.253.249.57
Old 08-18-2019, 12:51 PM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I got it started! I reset the distributor in it's hole one tooth back and it fired up
New problem....first time I started it up the exhaust was spitting out dirty water. I let it run for about 5 minutes and shut it down. The next time I started it up there wasn't any water spitting out the exhaust. Just steam or smoke coming out. I opened up the water pump and checked the impeller. Impeller is intact. I put in a new thermostat in last year. What are the steps to running this problem down?
Reply With Quote
  #4   IP: 72.69.36.126
Old 08-18-2019, 05:23 PM
tenders tenders is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Harlem YC, City Island, NY
Posts: 1,439
Thanks: 46
Thanked 259 Times in 170 Posts
No water means that water isn't getting in, through, or out. Which is it?

Not getting in...because the intake is clogged between the outside of the boat and the water pump?

Not getting through...remove the discharge water line from the manifold (briefly) and see if water comes through when the engine cranks - you can run it for 15 seconds or so without worrying about the exhaust melting.

Not getting out...because there's a blockage in the exhaust? Old exhaust hoses sometimes fail from the inside.
Reply With Quote
  #5   IP: 67.176.201.200
Old 08-18-2019, 06:30 PM
Sam Sam is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 322
Thanks: 490
Thanked 140 Times in 109 Posts
Do you have "early model [about pre 1969] or" later model" A4. Cooling plumbing is different with tstat and or by pass valve. Early model you could easily have some white steam out exhaust for a few minutes prior to engine getting to tstate temp and then water surging out. A little water is allowed past the tstat to mix/cool with raw exhaust creating "white smoke".

If later engine do you have "stand pipe" exhaust or "loop/muffler' system? Do I understand this right that engine wasn't fired up since may?
Reply With Quote
  #6   IP: 50.253.249.57
Old 08-19-2019, 10:08 AM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
This is the newer model engine.
I opened up the water pump and took out the impeller. It looked good and water came out when I opened it up. Then I looked at the hoses leading to the thermostat. Looked good. Last year when I replaced the head gasket, I put on what I thought was a new thermostat. Turns out I just replaced the housing.
There was no thermostat in there originally and me not really knowing anything about engines or what I'm doing I just bought a new housing and put it on there. I did call and talk to the guy at my local marine supply about it and he told me that its ok and that all that will do is cause the engine to run cooler which is possibly why the previous owner didn't have one in there to begin with.

So I took the thermostat housing off and noted that there was water inside the hole. After that I looked at the hose going from the thermostat to the manifold. The hose looked good but really dry. Everything else up until that point had traces of water from my earlier cranking and starting of the engine.

I need to tell you about the water lines going to the engine. The previous owner changed the original plan. The thru-hull fitting for the water intake is about 2 feet from the engine. The hose goes from there straight back to the stern to a valve in the cockpit that I open once the engine is fired up and close when I shut her down. From there the hose goes all the way back to the engine and enters the water pump. It is about 30 feet of hose that the water must travel from the thru-hull fitting back to the water pump.
I have not yet checked anything leaving the manifold. However it all looks pretty shiny and new. Definitely not original. I've seen pics of the old exhaust lines that are all corroded and blocked up.
I stopped chasing it down yesterday because I was apprehensive to keep cranking the engine. The ignition coil was hot and I'm not sure how much they can take before they burn up and go bad. I just bought this one!
So .025 plug gap not good? Should I go back to .035? I read about the gaps and it depends on how much power, rpms, etc, etc. It all goes over my head. Lol
Also, engine won't start unless I put a little gas right in the throat of the carburetor. Carburetor adjustment needed? I am feeding it from a can of gas right now because I suspect that I have water in the gas tank. I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it? I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.
I'm leaving the boat this morning for the week. I'll be back next weekend.
Thanks again!
Reply With Quote
  #7   IP: 71.38.107.125
Old 08-19-2019, 11:04 AM
roadnsky's Avatar
roadnsky roadnsky is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Lake Mead, NV
Posts: 3,104
Thanks: 24
Thanked 467 Times in 309 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingReckless View Post
I need to tell you about the water lines going to the engine. The previous owner changed the original plan. The thru-hull fitting for the water intake is about 2 feet from the engine. The hose goes from there straight back to the stern to a valve in the cockpit that I open once the engine is fired up and close when I shut her down. From there the hose goes all the way back to the engine and enters the water pump. It is about 30 feet of hose that the water must travel from the thru-hull fitting back to the water pump.
I'm not sure what that "valve" accomplishes but I would advise you to ditch that setup.
That's a long way for your cooling water to travel and for what?
Go straight from the thru hull to the water pump inlet.


Quote:
So .025 plug gap not good? Should I go back to .035? I read about the gaps and it depends on how much power, rpms, etc, etc. It all goes over my head.
Your spark plug gap will depend on if you have POINTS or you have EI...
On this site many gap at .035 for POINTS
and at .040 to .045 for EI setup


Quote:
I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it?
YES!
I'll let the MANUAL PUMP guys help you with priming the system.


Quote:
I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.
If it were my boat, yes, I would replace with proper fuel rated hose and fittings.
Let's get you running first and the forum can help you with getting this fixed up.
__________________
-Jerry

'Lone Ranger'

1978 RANGER 30
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to roadnsky For This Useful Post:
SailingReckless (08-20-2019)
  #8   IP: 107.77.97.52
Old 08-19-2019, 11:57 AM
lat 64's Avatar
lat 64 lat 64 is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Fairbanks, Alaska
Posts: 1,964
Thanks: 39
Thanked 240 Times in 157 Posts
Thumbs up

Quote:
I just took off and cleaned out both the manual fuel pump and carburetor. Could an air leak in the gas lines cause it?
YES!
I'll let the MANUAL PUMP guys help you with priming the system.


Quote:
I don't love how the old copper fuel lines screw on. The threads seem weak. I tried replacing them with new fuel lines but the loop of line collapsed. Maybe I bought the wrong fuel line because I see pictures of other people using rubber(?) gas line instead of the old copper.
If it were my boat, yes, I would replace with proper fuel rated hose and fittings.
Let's get you running first and the forum can help you with getting this fixed up.
__________________


Something to understand here; the fuel system is set up so that if you get a leak, it will suck air into the lines–not spray fuel out in to the boat. The hazard is rather obvious for that. Kp this concept in mind when you do new fuel lines.

Re: new fuel lines, just make sure it is "fuel-rated' special stuff. not discount store hose.

keep up the good work. you seem to be identifying the causes to problems in a steady fahsion.
__________________
Whiskeyjack a '68 Columbia 36 rebuilt A-4 with 2:1

"Since when is napping doing nothing?"

Last edited by lat 64; 08-19-2019 at 12:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to lat 64 For This Useful Post:
SailingReckless (08-20-2019)
  #9   IP: 207.118.20.35
Old 08-19-2019, 02:42 PM
capnward's Avatar
capnward capnward is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Deer Harbor WA
Posts: 335
Thanks: 41
Thanked 147 Times in 107 Posts
Your mechanical pump creates enough suction to overcome any small air leaks in the line upstream of it, so it won't fill up with air and stop working. Your carb was gummed up, that would be ethanol mixing with water in the gas. You will need new fuel filters. If the carb had water in it that may be because your water separator filter got too full of water, or the gummy stuff. Drain the filter into a glass jar and see. Find a source for non-ethanol gas. No water coming out the exhaust is probably because of the 30 foot airspace in the hose between the water intake and the water pump, and the pump doesn't get primed. That's hard on the impeller. The previous owner probably put that in to make it easier to turn the water flow on after the engine started, to keep you from putting exhaust water backward into the cylinders when overcranking. Instead of putting gas directly into the carb throat, try using the hand bail under the fuel pump to pressurize the line up to the float valve in the carb. Then engine will start sooner, and you are less likely to over-crank.
Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to capnward For This Useful Post:
SailingReckless (08-20-2019)
  #10   IP: 24.152.132.140
Old 08-19-2019, 09:25 PM
ndutton's Avatar
ndutton ndutton is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Torrance, CA
Posts: 9,619
Thanks: 198
Thanked 2,208 Times in 1,425 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by capnward View Post
Your mechanical pump creates enough suction to overcome any small air leaks in the line upstream of it, so it won't fill up with air and stop working.
I propose the corrective action is to repair leaks in the fuel system, not count on a pump to overcome them.
__________________
Neil
1977 Catalina 30
San Pedro, California
prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22
Had my hands in a few others
Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post:
Administrator (08-20-2019), SailingReckless (08-20-2019)
  #11   IP: 166.137.14.120
Old 09-16-2019, 03:02 PM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Name:  3E47CF50-BAC3-4337-8EDE-54F579738CB8.jpg
Views: 743
Size:  229.9 KB
Name:  BC7E1F12-2B68-436A-96D5-1397FDF35BE4.jpg
Views: 753
Size:  181.8 KB
Here’s where I’m at with this now....
I got rid of the 30 feet of hose for then raw water intake and came in from the thru hole and right up to the engine. Here’s what with wrong with that.....
I didn’t pay attention to the fact that this valve is setup backwards. Handle straight in line is closed. Handle perpendicular is open. I’m guessing placement of that water intake is such that when left open when engine shuts down it floods the engine block. I’m sure it would’ve been ok if I had realized the proper open/closed position of the valve because after the engine shut down I closed it. In reality tho I actually opened it and left it sitting open like that for a week.

So when I tried starting the engine today after being gone all week I noticed that it sounded different while cranking it over. I checked the oil and of course it was milky.
So I know how the water got in but my question is what now? I know I need to drain the oil and replace it but what about the cylinders and valves that were full of water? Do I drain the water out somehow?
Thanks guys!

Also I don’t know if it’s against the rules of this forum but are any of you willing to give me your number to text engine pics and questions to? This forum is the best and I am so grateful for it but my service and WiFi are so terrible at the boat that I have to leave to get on here😑 if so, please just send me a private message. Thanks again!
Reply With Quote
  #12   IP: 166.137.14.120
Old 09-16-2019, 03:33 PM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Name:  4833E127-CF13-4D84-893B-78492C1F1467.jpg
Views: 572
Size:  177.8 KB
I’m just sitting here watching water leak out of that hole by the stud now for almost an hour?!

Last edited by SailingReckless; 09-16-2019 at 03:35 PM. Reason: Worded it wrong
Reply With Quote
  #13   IP: 166.137.14.120
Old 09-16-2019, 04:40 PM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Just had a guy on the phone with me and he helped me run everything down and talk thru everything with me. I’m thinking now that it’s possible that I didn’t have the head torqued down properly and water was sneaking into the cylinders. Gonna change out the oil and take care to get proper torque on all the studs and see what happens. Fingers crossed!
Reply With Quote
  #14   IP: 108.34.253.10
Old 09-16-2019, 04:58 PM
jcwright jcwright is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 158
Thanks: 5
Thanked 99 Times in 75 Posts
Just in case your phone consultant didn't mention it, please make sure you re-torque the head nuts in the proper sequence and ft-pound increments. I should also mention that the practice of re-using head gaskets gets mixed reviews from those who have tried it.

best regards,

jack.
Reply With Quote
  #15   IP: 70.185.132.167
Old 09-16-2019, 06:07 PM
JOHN COOKSON JOHN COOKSON is offline
Afourian MVP, Professor Emeritus
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,500
Thanks: 54
Thanked 855 Times in 629 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingReckless View Post
I’m thinking now that it’s possible that I didn’t have the head torqued down properly and water was sneaking into the cylinders. the studs and see what happens.
And maybe just maybe torquing technique is right on and the head is warped.
While the head is off why not have it checked for flatness? I'm not an expert on all this - I think machine shop can check for flatness of the head.

TRUE GRIT
Reply With Quote
  #16   IP: 166.170.0.56
Old 09-29-2019, 06:23 PM
SailingReckless's Avatar
SailingReckless SailingReckless is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Clio, MI
Posts: 29
Thanks: 20
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
I have been torquing according to the pattern. I’ve checked the head for warping and if it’s warped at all it would have to be extremely extremely slight. I did just notice a new issue though. I have the head off and looking it over....there is a hole from one of the stud holes that goes thru to the nearest water hole. That stud stripped out when I was last torquing. (I’ve done a bit of work since I last posted on here. YouTube Sailing Reckless if you’re interested) Anyway before I go on to any other jobs I need to figure out what to do with this. Is it something that is ok? Did the stud eventually get soft because of the water penetration into its hole? There aren’t any cracks that I can see anywhere, just that one hole.
Reply With Quote
  #17   IP: 32.211.28.40
Old 09-29-2019, 09:51 PM
Al Schober's Avatar
Al Schober Al Schober is offline
Afourian MVP
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Uncasville, CT
Posts: 2,002
Thanks: 16
Thanked 578 Times in 405 Posts
SR,
If you check further, I think you'll find that most (if not all) of the studs in the block go into the water passage. They should all be sealed. And yes, the studs will corrode with time. The studs are just carbon steel while the block is a nickel iron alloy.
As to that hole that has water coming from it, don't be surprised. It's a water cooled engine and the water has to get from the block to the head.
However, don't be surprised if all the holes in the block don't correspond to holes in the head. And the 'blind' holes may or may not have a corresponding hole in the head gasket. However wherever the block and the head have aligning holes, the gasket should also have a hole. These holes must be clear of deposits.
Pay particular attention to the elongated holes by the valves. These passages DO tend to clog and must be chipped out. In doing this, wear safety glasses with side shields (full face shield better) and note that the passage doesn't go straight down - it goes down a bit, then horizontal, then down into the water jacket.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
distributor, timing

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Spring Start Up - Won't Start Tkenopic Troubleshooting 12 05-07-2017 10:08 AM
Engine will not start Dali007 Troubleshooting 13 08-23-2014 12:52 PM
Enginge won't start, need ideas to try Esgbradford Troubleshooting 33 07-02-2012 09:55 PM
Engine won't start and I'm at my wits-end ChicagoNewport27 Troubleshooting 64 07-23-2011 12:47 AM
Hard to start without "help" Tritonfl Troubleshooting 1 11-17-2005 11:30 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.


Universal® is a registered trademark of Westerbeke Corporation

Copyright © 2004-2024 Moyer Marine Inc.

All Rights Reserved