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#26
IP: 70.194.139.31
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Main Jet Leakage-tiny o ring mush another possible cause
Elizabeth,
In addition to the fiber washer where the fitting meets the carb, there is also a tiny O ring inside the adjustable main jet--(I am talking the MM upgrade with a T handle). My little O got gooey, mushy and basically disintegrated, I bet due to E10. Am talking with MM to gets some spares or at least the specs so I can get some locally. No wonder I was having trouble at the end of last season! Mary |
04-10-2014, 12:10 AM |
Elizabeth_B29 |
This message has been deleted by Elizabeth_B29.
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#27
IP: 67.142.181.23
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O ring mushy - alternate o ring compounds
Quote:
I do know from other experience that there are many different compounds for o rings. Not sure which are ethanol resistant. I do know that buna is not petro resistant where Viton is....possibly there is a "rubber" compound for ethanol gas. I have been successful in locating gas recently that is ethanol free. Maybe it is now available in your area. Good luck! CHeers! Elizabeth |
#28
IP: 67.142.181.23
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Knock, Rattle and Roll
Well hello Afourians,
Tonight changed out the oil with (Rotella diesel) oil as Hanley suggested...and why is it so much less expensive than oil for gasoline engines??? and is rated for both diesel and gas. cool find...The oil was pretty dirty. Timed carefully and she starts the second I push the starter. Yes I did have to loosen the clamp to allow the distributer to rotate and then tighten the clamp and then tighten the hold down ( Idles great, runs great under load. Can hear tappets ticking like in a BMW motorcycle engine, too loose or OK? But, here is the caveot. The rattle or knock still there at certain RPM ranges and it stops when I remove #1 plug wire. I know this isn't good news. So it isn't the accessory drive or the alternator bearing. Just break it to me gently. Is my top end trash? or can I recover with one of Don's videos, parts and a torque wrench or Marvel mystery oil??? Compression check next......stuck valve???? Dejected, Elizabeth of B_29 Last edited by Elizabeth_B29; 04-10-2014 at 01:02 AM. Reason: addition of text |
#29
IP: 72.45.14.161
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Hate to be a downer, but a rod bearing is another possibility
This cannot be changed in the boat. |
#30
IP: 24.152.131.153
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A compression test may indicate a rod bearing problem. I said may, the indication will be subtle.
I'm working on a spare engine. It ran when I got it but had a deep, sickening knock. By sound alone I was sure it was a rod bearing noise but before I tore things down I performed a compression test; 3@ 105, 1@ 85. Guess which cylinder was suspect? I removed the head and turned the engine over by hand. I could see the suspect piston did not reach the top of the cylinder like the others. Measuring showed the travel deficit was 1/8" and it's movement lagged behind the adjacent cylinder slightly. Taking the bottom end apart I found NO bearing in the suspect journal. Bottom line, the piston didn't travel as far up in the cylinder due to the missing bearing and resulted in less compression. If we can expect it to have been the same as the other cylinders the completely absent bearing = 1/4" less travel (1/8" at the top and 1/8" at the bottom) = 20 PSI less compression. A stuck valve will show a much greater loss of compression. If it were me, before I started planning the removal of the engine:
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#31
IP: 161.213.49.150
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E_B29
In post #1 you said you had a video. Maybe you can get help uploading it. I'm sure many in the forum can help also. Then we can all have a listen. Also in post #1 you said you were going to try running with the alternator belt removed. What was the result or did you not do it? TRUE GRIT When the going gets tough the tough get going. Hang in there. |
#32
IP: 206.125.176.5
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wOw. Lots going on here. I have a few comments.
Elizabeth, sorry to hear about the potential knock. I also run the 15w-40 Rotella. I like it. Timing - Tom Thatcher has designed a timing indicator that runs off the accessory drive pulley...it spins 1:1 with the flywheel... Here is a link to some pics - http://www.moyermarine.com/forums/sh...47&postcount=9
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
#33
IP: 67.142.181.20
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Knock Knock whose there? Thanks all for input, will trouble shoot knock in a few days
Good evening Afourians!
Will get back to troubleshooting soon. Meanwhile MMO squirted in all four cylinders. Should I kroil them? squirt the MMO towards the intake manifold? Tried to put pressure on the acc drive pulley when running, not sure if I did, but did not her any change when I tried. Next trip troubleshooting: check compression replace #1 plug pull valve cover and look for stuck valve, missing or damaged keeper etc. check/adjust tappet clearance Try to see into cylinders and look for any carbon/crud chunks crank without alt belt w/ field wire disconnected It may be time to start checking my second A4 and get it ready for a swap. It is raw water cooled whereas the one in the boat is FW cooled. CHeers! Elizabeth B_29 |
#34
IP: 23.241.157.69
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Timing
Elizabeth, could you post a pic of your plugs? Something may show up there too.
DON'T TRUST YOUR TIMING!!! Unless you know where TDC really is a light is of absolutely no use for checking the timing!!! The light is OK for checking the advance though. Just fire it up and use the light on the Accy Drive pulley. Just use the light and shoot it at the pullet you will recognize a mark of some sort on the pulley when the light flashes. Now shut down and draw a line at the mark you saw! Now draw another line about 11/16 of an inch away. The 11/16 of an inch is about how much timing (about 17 degrees on the crank) movement you will see in the C-adv and it should be fully advance before 2,000 RPM's. Now we know the C-adv is correct and the light can be put away until you actually find TDC. You can set a mark where the timing is flashing and work back and forth from there and not loose the spot for your current timing. A pointer like Thatch's is really great but for this any indicator even a taped on wire will do. I would still like to know whether the timing is influencing the knock. If a cylinder is really loaded with soot deposits and the timing is a bit to much a knocking like sound can be created as the effective compression in a sooty cylinder can be higher and it already has a burning the fuel problem!!! This is something I would check before deciding to tear it down. If it does come to that. Dave Neptune |
#35
IP: 67.142.181.22
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Plugs and timing - can I run on three cylinders?
Thanks Dave!
Here are a few answers to your questions: The plugs I was running before changing out the distributer were really sooty. This distributer had a heavy track of what looked like fine metal shavings and ther flyweights and area were really rusted. That is why I decided to replace the distributer. The orig. plugs were Champions. The new plugs are Autolites, installed with the new distributer. They were burning clean the last time I pulled them to put in thhe mystery oil. I will pull them again get a picture the next time I return to tinker and check the valve train and take off the alternator belt. I was really careful to find TDC, had compression in number 1 and also used a wire on top of the piston and watched/felt carefully and did this many times to be sure, marking the FWC pump pulley on the end of the shaft. 90 degrees rotation counterclockwise from the point I felt the compression and the FWC pulley ended up at the same place every time, so I marked it. This is the mark I shot with the timing light as I cant get to the roll pin. I saw it moving when strobed but didn't measure. Didn't use the timing light to time as I could not get to roll pin. (Hmmmm number one is having the problem and it is also my reference point for TDC....this could be a problem huh? if the bearing is trashed or absent, the piston travel could be different??? but does this matter if I adjsted the timeing running?) Then cranked the engine and put on a nitrile glove and grasped the distributer and rotated it slowly back and forth until I found the smoothest running spot with highest RPM's and then stopped the engine and tightened to clamp and hold down. #1 plug wire ended up where I expected and without interference with alt belt and oil fill at TDC. kinda pointing just forward of stbd. quarter. (early model engine) I did install a new choke cable but did not look at the butterfly. I just pulled the choke arm to what I though was fully open and clamped down the cable clamp. It does work well and has smoooth travel. This engine when cold and with the choke on full cranks as soon as I push the button before I can even release the button. It then warms up within a few minutes and runs very smoothly when not at the RPMs where the knocking/ticking sound occurs. It really starts easily now and runs without any power loss issues even with the knock when powering against the lines at the dock in forward and reverse. When I started to sytematically pull off the plug wires from back to front, number 4 shocked me so I replaced it with a good used one that has a different physical appearance, it is black and thinner than the grey silicone thicker wire that was leaking. Is a different make of plug wire mixed in a problem? I then pulled #3, #2, with just the expected RPM difference and then when I pulled #1 the knock stopped immediately. Sounds like a rod bearing to me but I want to stay open. Could easlily have missed something or have something else going on, chunk of carbon??? as I am a greenhorn with these engines. VIewed the ignition system in the dark with no apparent leaks, but didn't spray a mist of water on the plug wires. ***This may be a clue and interesting to you*** One thing that did happen once is that when I was rotating through TDC I did get my wire trapped somewhere temporarily. I tugged a little and it came back out. This was not something I expected or could justify....if I was on top of the piston did the wire get caught between the piston and cylinder or the piston and head? Is there a ring broken? or can a piece of stainless seizing wire get trapped or pinched by a piston??This may be a clue as to what is going on. I do have torque wrenches and everything to take off the head and look, but jeeez I just want to sail and I was sailing engineless until I got to the A4 restoration phase of my boat restoration. It has really been a great learing experience and knowledge I needed to know for sure. Thanks to you all I decided to just jump in. It has been good regardless of the knock! Soooo the important practical sailing question is... Can I run on three cylinders while I sort this out? Where does the unignited gasoline go if I do and what is the meaning of life??? well ....without sailing. Cheers, to mysteries in things that are simple! Elizabeth E_B29 minus one (cylinder) Last edited by Elizabeth_B29; 04-12-2014 at 07:50 PM. |
#36
IP: 24.152.131.153
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Just a couple of comments:
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#37
IP: 67.142.181.20
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Limping on three cylinders - not a good idea
Thanks Neil,
I will heed this advice. Don't want to damage the crank (any further ?) if it is a rod knock. Will check in at beginning of the week after I look at this some more. Thanks to all! Elizabeth EB_29 minus 1 |
#38
IP: 24.152.131.153
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Please tell us about your spare engine, condition, history, etc.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#39
IP: 67.142.181.20
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Spare engine
Hi Neil,
It came from a Pearson Triton that a bunch of college kids bought and were restoring when I was on the hard doing shaft and rudder work. They subscribed to the no engine (James Baldwin - Atom) school even though they had never sailed. I took a look and realized it had electronic Ignition, electric fuel pump, primary and secondary fuel filters, new Moyer Exhaust manifold, new carb. and quickly made an offer, $200.00 they accepted and they were glad I hauled it off. At the time I didn't really realize what a coop that was, now I do. It is raw water cooled unfortunately...(my current engine is fresh water cooled) but maybe it isn't too "corroded" in the jacket. I never heard it run, but they did when they purchased the boat from an elderly school teacher in NY. SHe had a mechanic regularly maintain it. I have all the receipts that look to substantiate this and these kids have a lot of integrity. I do not know the hours on the engine or compression numbers. Will start checking on that. I have scavenged the starter, internally regulated alternator, carb, distrib, coil and resistor from it. What looks like a freeze plug on the back near the coil mount area is greenish but it doesn't look like it is leaking. It is in my shed. I should run compression check and pull the valve and side covers and look for crud huh? That crossover fitting fr. manifold to jacket has brass fittings and hose instead of the cast part on it. Gaads, guess i should set it up to run and listen to the rods or tear into it and renew the bearings and modify the accessory drive to update? I took a universal diesel out of a Pearson Coaster by myself, but I had access to a crane....may be time to round up another crane. It does look like I will have good access to lift it out. Can I hand crank to get good compression readings? How do I check the bearings so I don't repeat the same scenario? Elizabeth |
#40
IP: 24.152.131.153
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What I was thinking is since you have a spare engine, if it comes to removing the engine from the boat you could drop the spare in immediately and then work on the knocker at your leisure. I read that the goal was to get out sailing ASAP and this is why you have a spare engine.
A proper bearing check of the spare involves dismantling the engine completely so unless there's some other indication putting the bearings in question I'd avoid it. I'd suggest spending a little time on the spare as you continue to diagnose the knocker. Check the compression (you'll need the starter, hand cranking is not enough), pressure test the cooling system, rig it for running on the stand to have a listen and confirm oil pressure, finish up with an acid flush. You don't need an alternator for this. I'm thinking a couple of hours and you'll know if you have a viable drop-in spare. If there's anything you need for a bench test you have but to ask. I have a spare instrument and ign/start panel made up and ready to ship at a moment's notice, the one I used to bench test mine. It ain't purdy but it works just fine. For the modest cost of USPS Priority Mail it could be in your hands in two days. If it turns out the boat's engine does not need to be removed, there's no harm in having a spare at the ready.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#41
IP: 67.142.181.20
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images of engine
This is the only image I have of the engine, but can shoot some more.
Elizabeth B_29 |
#42
IP: 67.142.181.20
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GAAK! the image is larger than life
Thanks Neil!
The panel sounds like a good idea. It will keep me from rigging another rats nest like what I just removed from my boat> I will keep you posted. I think I am destined to rebuild one of these sooner or later, but hoping later at my leisure so I enjoy it. I think it is a good bet that the spare will be OK. Maybe I can dig up the previous owner's name somewhere....or find those kids. just for grins. Cheers! Elizabeth |
#43
IP: 184.0.109.80
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Here's a smaller version...
__________________
-Jerry 'Lone Ranger' 1978 RANGER 30 |
#44
IP: 23.241.157.69
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A careful check!
Elizabeth there is another check you can do that requires feel and should possibly work in your case. This is how we checked for broken cranks on big racing engines with noises and still running. Happens more that you would think!
This test requires your feel and may take some time ~ beer~wine~ or rum and cookies~ to get a friend or dock mate to assist. First you will need to be able to rock the engines crank back and forth by hand, the crank handle would be ideal but I think you have a water pump mount correct? Find your TDC and set the crank to it. Now remove all 4 plugs so you can get a wire down in them. There will now be two pistons at the top of the stroke. With the wire setting on top of the GOOD cylinders piston have yer happy helper rock the crank back and forth slightly, this is just enough to take to slack in both directions to FEEL where the piston begins to move. Now go to the offending cylinder and repeat. If it takes a bit more movement to move the offending piston the rodbearing or the crank is badly worn. Doing this at TDC will maximize the rotation needed to fill the "BEARING CLEARANCE GAP". Note when checking for a broken crank we'd just rock one end and feel the other. You should be able to ascertain a difference in the rods gap if there is some. Good luck. Dave Neptune |
#45
IP: 67.142.181.24
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Rod bearing and crank check to diagnose knock
Thanks Dave,
I understand this. Will try to get to it ASAP after I finish T_X_S. Taxes, a bad word. A dial indicator won't reach to touch the piston top huh? Looks to be too far under the head to the side of the spark plug hole to do this. I get it and will proceed maybe Tuesday after I find a complicit wino. Cheers! Elizabeth EB29 missing her bearings IS it North ohhh quite possibly SOUTH! PS thanks Jerry for resizing me. If I could edit I would dump out that data hog giant image.... |
#46
IP: 67.142.181.24
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Shaft alignment affect knock?
Hello All,
Just curious, thinking about the crank and the fact that the shaft is coupled to the crank. Thinking about the big picture which brings this variable into focus. My alignment was one thousandth off, but I do have a Drive Saver installed to isolate the galvanic and also pick up my alignment slack....could this cause problems? I am directly mounted to fiberglass rails and used shims to align Up and down with wrecking bars to slide the engine around while sitting behind it. I really want to have real engine mounts next time I do this. My shaft was deemed straight by a machine shop but I could never get the alignment right on after trying three days. So I put on the drive saver. The stuffing box is a new Buck and the cutlass was/is new. Packing is a little too tight so I will repack. Should I uncouple the shaft? I have this not so funny thought that alignment may have "settled" after being in the water and having the rigging tuned, so if I uncouple it will sproing out of control. ..well not really that bad. Happy Sunday! Elizabeth E_B29 missing her bearings IS it North ohhhh quite possibly SOUTH! |
#47
IP: 72.45.14.161
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15W40 oil is IMHO great for an A4 in a hot climate, but if it helps a bearing knock this is only a temporary fix. Apparently some A4s have run a long time with terrible bearing knock, so maybe a long temporary but still..........
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#48
IP: 23.241.157.69
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Shaft engine knock = no.
Elizabeth, your shaft at .001 is fine and should not even be a factor. If your knock was only in gear we may look to the shaft but I doubt it in this case. IE don't worry about the shaft at all! Besides if it were the shaft how could pulling one plug wire cause it to knock~yer a reaching for straws on this me thinks.
Try the rocking the crank with a feeler on the piston. At TDC just a tiny bit more clearance especially enough to knock will make a big difference in rocking the crank back an forth. I'm only talking a few degrees of rotation back and forth here. If it take a bit more motion to get the bad cylinders piston to move than the good one problem found and time to fix! You can probably use a fixed wrench on the nut holding the pump pulley on. Or even grabbing the flywheel if the cover is open. The crank will easily rock until it starts to move the pistons and it is that gap between that is the concern between the good and the bad. Dave Neptune |
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ignition, knock, stumbling under load |
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