#1
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Is it the alternator or the gauge
Hi guys, My engine issues are 1000% better. Margarita runs like new and no exhaust issues. No smell, no smoke, GREAT. Now, I noticed that the ammeter not moving at all. It just sits dead in the middle. The gauge goes to +- 60 amps. How can I check to see if it is the gauge or the alternator? I looked at the electrical forum and didn't see anything. Any help?
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#2
IP: 32.211.28.40
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Hopefully you have a digital voltmeter that you can trust. If not, get one.
Curious what your ammeter is supposed to read. Just alternator output, or does it measure all current in/out of your batteries. If the meter came with the boat, it's likely just alternator output. New (smarter) systems put a shunt in the negative leg to the house bank and measure current both ways. There are shunt meters that only do alternator output. First step should be to measure the output voltage of the alternator, engine running. If it's more than battery voltage you should see charge current, hence a meter/wiring problem. If there's no/low alternator voltage you have an issue with the alternator or its regulator - don't confuse the two. Problems with either will prevent output from the alternator. |
The Following User Says Thank You to Al Schober For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-17-2020) |
#3
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Thanks Al. Quick question, my battery goes through a Perko switch. Will the voltage reading be correct at the battery?
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#4
IP: 138.207.177.95
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At the battery is what matters
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The Following User Says Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-17-2020) |
#5
IP: 69.250.111.245
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Bayou, AL's excellent post covers many scenarios. The problem is a lot of these boats now have seen multiple owners and many have changed things over the years, hence the need to figure out how your boat is wired.
If you were to measure the voltage at the battery, please take into account that ANY and ALL connections between the alternator and the battery could affect the ability to charge the battery, or limit that effectiveness. However, as Joe commented, that is the ultimate goal..make sure the alt brings up the battery when the engine is running. True battery voltage will be available at the battery posts, and should be somewhere between 12.6v and 12.8v at rest under no load. But, does it answer the question you are asking? The ammeter is likely in the middle of the circuit..your question is why does it read zero (or as I will explain later, appear to be zero?) I think the answer is at the alternator end of the circuit, not the battery end..for now. If you can get a voltmeter on the (+) output of the alternator and the (-) on a good ground on the engine (I use the alternator mounting bracket bolt, but mine is SS and not covered with paint) we can instantly tell if the alternator/regulator package is working. If it is not 13.8+ volts, one of those two is not working. IMO, that is the first test, and then we move forward from there. edit - to add in a few more thoughts, these older ammeters were WAY more range than ever could be put out by the 35A Motorola alternators. At first startup when you've drained the battery with the blower and the starter, you should see the gauge maybe as high as +15-20 amps for a minute or several minutes. As the battery is charged its ability to take those amps diminishes, it may be charging at 3 or 4 amps as it is being topped off, that will barely register on a -60/60+ ammeter. - There are MANY factors involved here, we are trying to figure out where your scenario falls and provide appropriate advice. The next questions I have will be: -What type of alternator? -Original regulator? -Wire gauge on alternator output? -Does that output wire still run from the alternator to the ammeter in the cockpit?
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) Last edited by sastanley; 11-17-2020 at 11:52 AM. Reason: fixing a few typos, and blabbing on as usual.. |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-17-2020), Dave Neptune (11-18-2020) |
#6
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Thanks everyone for the input. This afternoon I will go to the boat and run these tests.
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#7
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Testing done
OK, I tested the voltage at the battery and the alternator. When I got to the boat, the bat was at 13.8. Upon start up the voltage dropped to 12.7 and never got any higher. During the 15 min run time, it dropped down to 12.4. Checking at the alt, the readings never got over bat voltage. I think the alt is shot. I also think the gauge is shot because it never even ticks. Not even when you turn the ignition on or off. I just hate the thought of spending $250 for the most basic alternator made. I would think any 1 wire alt that fits should work. I am not a cruiser, only day sailor.
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#8
IP: 165.225.20.171
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If it was me, and I was confident that all my readings are OK in the boat, I would remove the alternator and bring it to Advanced Auto Parts / Pep Boys etc... they can usually test it for free.
Depending on what alternator you have, you may have just a dead voltage regulator (mounted at the back of your alternator). One thing that must be taken into account, your alternator must/should be a "marine" one, that prevents sparks to light off potential gas fumes... not the cheapest ones... Many shops would be able to overhaul/repair your alternator for less than a new one.
__________________
Surcouf A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979) |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Surcouf For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-18-2020), sastanley (11-20-2020) |
#9
IP: 138.207.177.95
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Quote:
Next - you do not have to spend $250 to fix this issue. First thing would be the local alternator repair shop, it might be fixable for half that. Failing that, you can look around for used A4 alternators. People scrapping engines or replacing the stock alternator with a bigger one sometimes sell them. You also can look for Balmar alternators that fit, but they are usually big $$$. The many variants of the 10si Delco alternators also fit with the Moyer longer alternator support arm. The 10si form factor has been copied by all kinds of Chinese factories, you can get them for well under $100. Our host sells a 10si alternator that is many steps up from the cheapest knock-off, both in quality and price. Just make sure you get a MARINE ignition protected version, not a car version! There is an Atomic 4 alternator on FleaBay right now Last edited by joe_db; 11-18-2020 at 07:52 AM. |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-18-2020), sastanley (11-20-2020) |
#10
IP: 24.61.95.61
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please excuse this basic question
Marine alternators need the engine throttle to be raised up a lot for a few seconds after starting the engine. Has this been checked? Best Art |
#11
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Tested
I removed the atlernator yesterday. Took it to the auto parts store. It's dead. I am going to an alternator repair shop today to see what they can do. Worse case, I'll order a new one and life goes on. Thanks again guys. Fair Winds.
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#12
IP: 69.250.111.245
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When you bring the alt back to the boat we need to talk about how the boat is wired. Again, as joe mentioned, the long charge circuit up to the ammeter in the cockpit is an issue. IMO connecting the alt output to the Common on the battery selector switch gives the batteries a fighting chance.
Details are important here on the Moyer forum..please follow up with us.
__________________
-Shawn "Holiday" - '89 Alura 35 #109 "Twice Around" - '77 C-30, #511 with original A-4 & MMI manifold - SOLD! (no longer a two boat owner!!) |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to sastanley For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-22-2020), Peter (11-21-2020) |
#13
IP: 138.207.177.95
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FYI - I have had my 50A Motorola repaired twice over the years and the Balmar once. The usual issue is losing diodes.
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The Following User Says Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post: | ||
sastanley (11-21-2020) |
#14
IP: 47.38.39.58
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Pretty good news
The alternator has external VR. The wire from the VR was taped off and not connected. Daniel, the alternator guy said the alternator is putting out but the VR and diode are fried. He also told me that the way that the alternator was connected it was never working! With the onboard charger hooked to shore power all the time, the battery never ran down. It is only about 15 minutes from the harbor to hoisting sails. He ordered me a Delco marine use alternator that he said will "bolt right up" and he ordered the VR and diode pack. I don't have a lot of faith that the delco will fit, but we'll see. It's only $100 and I don't pay until it's working. If it does, I will have the original Motorola repaired ($90) and shrink wrapped and put on a shelf in the shop. Fingers crossed.
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#15
IP: 138.207.177.95
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Quote:
See this note from Moyer: Please note that the correct O.E.M. alternator support arms measure 9 – 1/8” in a straight line from the center of the lower mounting bolt hole to the very top of the slot. Earlier O.E.M support arms only measure 8 ˝” in this dimension and will not have adequate adjustment to properly tension 26” belts. Refer to product number OVEL_03_222 if you need to replace your support arm. |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to joe_db For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-23-2020), GregH (11-23-2020) |
#16
IP: 104.174.83.118
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When I switched to a Delco 10Si I had to relieve the alternator mounting/lifting eye bracket slightly to allow the larger case to rotate down sufficiently. In my case with the engine located under the dinette seat there is zero wiggle room in overall engine height.
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to ndutton For This Useful Post: | ||
#17
IP: 67.169.215.221
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I wish I had known about Neil's genius alternator bracket mod before I had torqued down the head on the new motor.
I installed the alternator today... and my 10si case is contacting exactly where Neil marked up the photo. So now that I know there is a proven solution, I need to un-torque the head and take the hacksaw to it. The good news, is I can do some touch up on paint that I marred with the tight fit of the alternator.
__________________
Thanks, Ron Portland, OR Last edited by ronstory; 11-24-2020 at 10:16 AM. Reason: typos |
#18
IP: 165.225.20.171
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[QUOTE=ronstory;123854
I installed the alternator today... and my 10si case is contacting exactly where Neil marked up the photo. So now that I know there is a proven solution, I need to un-torque the head and take the hacksaw to it. [/QUOTE] if ity was me, I would take a small grinder / small hand tool, and grind those 2 corners on the engine directly, rather than taking the risk of loosening the head... just my 2 cents. Good luck
__________________
Surcouf A nostalgic PO - Previously "Almost There" - Catalina 27 (1979) |
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Surcouf For This Useful Post: | ||
Bayou Sailor (11-24-2020), TimBSmith (11-24-2020) |
#19
IP: 47.38.39.58
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the grind
Alternator came in yesterday. I will pick it up this afternoon and head to the boat with the alt and my 4" grinder! Thanks for the input! I will give the final report on this tomorrow, and then on to completing my brightwork. But of course, that is a different forum.
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#20
IP: 134.41.89.226
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Good luck. "Finishing your brightwork"...awesome. I have a 30 kt cold north wind blowing at my patio door right now, the boat is on the hard and I'm watching youtube video's of sailing (NBJS channel on youtube) and wishing I was 20 years younger. All the best.
__________________
Mo "Odyssey" 1976 C&C 30 MKI The pessimist complains about the wind. The optimist expects it to change. The realist adjusts the sails. ...Sir William Arthur Ward. |
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Mo For This Useful Post: | ||
#21
IP: 138.207.177.95
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I am in mid-varnish and I should have worked faster. I think about 2 out of the next 10 days will be good for varnishing.
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#22
IP: 104.174.83.118
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Quote:
https://www.amazon.com/Crown-JD-M-64...E0WMB2YB432JA7
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
#23
IP: 192.186.122.174
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Quote:
__________________
Greg 1975 Alberg 30 |
#24
IP: 138.207.177.95
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If I ever move to Canada I think I'll get a PO Box on the USA side of the border before I leave.
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#25
IP: 104.174.83.118
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Not my fault . . .
__________________
Neil 1977 Catalina 30 San Pedro, California prior boats 1987 Westsail 32, 1970 Catalina 22 Had my hands in a few others |
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