Columbia 28, new motor selection.

[Jrezky]

Hi everybody! I'm not sure if there's a better place to put/ask this, but as it's my first post here goes nothing. Also, sorry ahead of time if I'm asking for too much help or wasting peoples' time or something. Just hoping to get some advice from those who are more experienced than me.

[Note: Originally, I made a post on r/sailing asking for help on this matter, and feel I have gone down the rabbit hole just a bit. Link to that post is toward the bottom for anyone interested.]

Anyway, my family owns a Columbia 28 sailboat. When we bought her, the original engine didn't work and the previous owner had an outboard mounted to the transom with a bracket. So, we just kept it like that since price quotes at the time on repairing/rebuilding whatever is wrong with the Atomic 4 were far in excess of the cost of the whole thing to begin with.

Then, our outboard was stolen about 6 months ago (and in hindsight, we probably made it pretty damn easy for them). Now we finally have the ability to replace the outboard, and we've decided on a Yamaha 9.9 high thrust. It will require a new transom mount as well. However, during the process of doing research and trying to decide what to buy, I saw some posts from people buying and selling Atomic 4s for what I consider very reasonable prices. That got me wondering if maybe we should consider trying to get the A4 running or even buy a new one. I am no motor expert, plus taking on a big side project would be very slow-going, and I hear that even a crane could be involved. But, if the price, effort, hassle, complications, etc. are all acceptable, it might convince us.

I guess my questions are:

1. Should we go back to an inboard?
2. If we try to go back to an inboard, what would that kind of undertaking encompass?
3. Would it make more sense to repair vs replace, and what sort of cost-range should we anticipate?
4. Or, should we just stick with the outboard for the convenience, and possibly cost?

Please feel free to check my original post over at reddit for some more history/background info. I appreciate anybody who might be able to share a little of their wisdom.

[JOHN COOKSON]

I guess my questions are:

1. Should we go back to an inboard?
2. If we try to go back to an inboard, what would that kind of undertaking encompass?
3. Would it make more sense to repair vs replace, and what sort of cost-range should we anticipate?
4. Or, should we just stick with the outboard for the convenience, and possibly cost?

.

You're asking for opinions but we don't have any information to base an opinion on ie what is the condition of the A4 that's on the boat.* Having said that here's my take. Others will be along with there's.
The engine needs compression, spark, and fuel in the cylinders to start and run. The choke and timing need to be adjusted correctly also.
My first question is does the engine turn over with the starter or a hand crank?
*I'm purposely ignoring the statement by someone who said the engine on the boat doesn't work. There may be something minor the matter with it. Then again the problem(s) may require a replacement or an overhaul. Let's find out and go from there.


TRUE GRIT

[Jrezky]

Yeah, I understand that's probably not enough to go on at the moment. I only just got wondering about restoring the original motor yesterday, and previous to then we had just sorta written off the idea when we got that price quote.
I don't remember if the guy we bought her from said what was wrong with it, or even if he knew. Also I don't know whether my dad ever tried starting it for the hell of it. If I had to wager, I'd say it hasn't been run for 10 years, so I'm not overly optimistic that it's just a minor issue.
We likely won't have a chance to make it out to the boat until the weekend, so I probably won't be able to provide much information until then. I guess I'm still not being very helpful, huh? Thank you for the reply.

[BunnyPlanet169]

First - welcome to the forum!

Second - as you contemplate the future, I'd suggest you pick up the MMI Atomic 4 manual. Even if you don't ultimately go down that road, you will be able to make informed choices.

We'd all love to see pictures of your A4! It would really help to offer more informed advice.

My thoughts:

1) The boat doesn't care if you use an outboard or inboard. The C28 drawings show both options from the factory, similar to the Bristol 27. It really depends on how you use your boat. You sail in SF bay - wind, tide, waves, and fog. If it's only ever calm sunny days in and out of the slip you could use an electric trolling motor. If it's also frequently gusty, choppy, or lasts longer than one (hour or tank of gas), an inboard makes more sense. Somewhere in between is the outboard. Only you can determine this. Be honest with yourself.

2) A running used long-shaft is maybe $1000, and a running used A4 is probably about the same. A (good) new 9.9 long-shaft is around $3000. Add $300 for a good mount. A new MMI short-block with the new head option is $3600 http://www.moyermarine.com/estimate.htm Initial capital cost only, this is all a wash to me.

Note: 'short block' is the name for a re-manufactured engine where you take many of the external parts of your engine and add them to the new engine 'core'. Depending on how you value your time and the engine you have, the short block is a really good deal, and easily within the capabilities of most people.


3) Project time, scary new processes, and learning.

Mounting an outboard on the transom will be faster and easier. You will still need to safely store gasoline, and move it from time to time. The controls are where? (I'd want an electric start...), and there may or may not be a way to use the alternator to charge your batteries, assuming you have some electronics and lights.

You still have an Atomic 4 in the boat, however, and presumably a gas tank, exhaust, and some electrical wiring and batteries. Would you just let it sit there? Is the gas tank empty? All that stuff takes up a lot of space....

To the uninitiated, hoisting an engine is a scary prospect. In practice, people do it all the time, sometimes in very primitive conditions. It cost me $300 to have a boom truck arrive in my yard, sling the engine, and drop it into the boat. Less than one hour arrival to departure, and much of that was chatting. It was free to remove the engine, but I was able to use gravity....

Removing a starter motor may sound difficult, but it only requires that you unscrew two bolts, and two nuts attaching wires. Anyone can do this. The whole engine is like this - mechanically very simple - and remarkably bulletproof.

Lastly - learning. I am a reluctant mechanic. I am very mechanically inclined, but have always had a love/hate relationship with internal combustion engines. I learned. The support of this forum, the MMI manual, and a bit of blind faith goes a long, long way. I can't say I always love working on my engine, but I've learned how to work on it, and that knowledge is very reassuring when things go wrong.

[joe_db]

The A4 will be a vastly superior engine for your boat. If you just can't afford it, an outboard beats nothing at all. If you do some good sleuthing, you can usually find a decent A4 for sale someplace in the $1500-$2500 range. Also note some of them, like maybe yours, get declared dead for fairly trivial reasons.

[Jrezky]

Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome! I am technically-minded, but don't work with motors. I know how to change oil, replace a starter, etc., so I'm sure with enough time, a manual, and maybe some guidance now and then I could get it done, so to speak.

The A4 has been in there for the 5(?) years we've had the boat, and I don't think there are plans to get rid of it anytime soon. I rewired the electrical system since it was a mess, and we have a working battery that powers all the lights, stereo, and bilge pump.

Features on the Yamaha 9.9 we have picked out are high thrust, extra long shaft, electric start, and power tilt. Also, it has an easy freshwater flush system and can be done from the top, which is actually the main reason we chose it. Altogether with a mount and maybe a couple other things (a remote would be nice), we are looking at around $3500 out the door from the boat shop. So, if we found an A4 in good condition for a decent price, we might go that way. We just need more information on the current A4 before I can even start to decide what to do.

If she pilots the same either way, I suppose that's fortunate. We don't use the motor except to pilot in and out of the marina, and once or twice in some semi-emergencies. Also we don't go out in fog or heavy weather, just on the occasional sunny summer day, and even then we generally head back when the wind starts to pick up more in the afternoon. I don't think we found much to complain about with our previous outboard besides the short shaft, location of the flush system, and pull-start.

I'll try to get some good pics this weekend of the A4, and start poking around down there.

[BunnyPlanet169]

I'll try to get some good pics this weekend of the A4, and start poking around down there.

Given your skills, the only reason NOT to explore the A4 option is potential time off the water. It will be more of a project. Projects tend to creep as you move along. It may or may not consume $3500, depending....

I'll bet Ken can have the manual to you by Friday.

I think we'll all be interested to see what you find!

[joe_db]

I paid way less for my A4 than $3500 and remember the outboard is NOT a selling point if you ever need to sell the boat. I think you can get a shortblock from Moyer for around that too

[JOHN COOKSON]

(A)Given your skills, the only reason NOT to explore the A4 option is potential time off the water.
(B)It will be more of a project. Projects tend to creep as you move along.
!

It's a tough decision with an older boat. Sometimes you have to spend the book value or even more to keep the boat sailable. How long do you plan on keeping the boat? If only 2 or 3 more years an outboard would be a quick and easy solution See (B) above. If you plan on keeping the boat for awhile and feel like taking on and have time for a project the A4 would be an excellent project. What is your temperament like in regard to this idea? See (A) above.
Anyway lets get down to business here:
If the engine turns over with the starter you will be able to do a compression test. This will tell you a lot about the basic health of the engine. Some examples which you probably already know: Low compression across the board that improves when oil is added to the cylinder: Rings are worn. = tear down and rebuild or a short block. Low compression in one cylinder: Most likely a stuck valve. Low compression in two adjacent cylinders. = blown head gasket between the two cylinders. This is why I suggested to get the engine to turn over first.
If the engine's "basic health" is good it is relatively easy to get a working ignition and fuel system if that becomes necessary.
Once you commit to getting the A4 working there is no going back. Be aware of this. It's like getting married.
A BOAT IS A HOLE IN THE WATER INTO WHICH ONE THROWS MONEY.
Captain, only you can decide the course you are going to take. Think about the advice you have gotten and going to get and make an informed decision.
Best of luck to you. May fair winds and smooth seas be with you.

TRUE GRIT

Edit: PS Welcome to the forum. Hope you stick around.

[JOHN COOKSON]

JERZKY
One more for you. Have you read the tech tips and FAQs?
Look for a tab on the MMI home page.

TRUE GRIT

[Jrezky]

Thank you all for the assistance. I think it's healthy for me to try and avoid making the fallacy of sunk cost here, though. The time and money we put into the boat isn't an investment, it's simply money spent. I'm pretty sure my father has no plans to lose the boat in the future, and for sure it's been a pretty good money-sink (as opposed to a drain. *ba dum tsss*).

Personally as far as vehicle upkeep is concerned, I prefer to either go completely stock or all custom. That hinges on the capacity to afford one of those as well, so it doesn't often end up that way. My point being, I'd love to get the original A4 working, but if the damage is really bad we may just get the outboard and leave the A4 as an occasional side project for a fun challenge.

If we can get enough info this weekend to determine the motor is just about in the range of pretty nearly something all but approaching roughly almost not quite night practically close to working condition, and if it can be brought to life relatively quickly, then that's probably the way for us to go!

[BunnyPlanet169]

I think it's healthy for me to try and avoid making the fallacy of sunk cost here, though. The time and money we put into the boat isn't an investment, it's simply money spent.

Bingo! Money spent to have fun, no residual value. And if you like boat work, double bonus fun. Triple word score if you like to itch.

IMHO older, non-pedigree, plastic boats have one of three values:

Baseline. 30 foot, 45 year old plastic boat, more or less operational original equipment: $5K - $10K ish
Same boat, non-op motor or damaged hull (but not both), mixed equipment but never sunk, to a hopeless romantic: Baseline -80%
Same boat, all the bells and whistles: Baseline + approx 10% of all your time and money spent, where total value will probably never exceed 2x baseline, and time is free.

Please take some pictures!!

[ndutton]

Three simple tests can point to a go - no go decision for you and your engine:

• Does the engine turn at all?
• Compression test
• Cooling system pressure test

If it passes all three tests you have puh-lenty to work with and you'll get her running with modest expense. Failure of any test is not necessarily a deal breaker but adds to the time and money investment.

[JOHN COOKSON]

If You Ask "How Much" You Can't Afford It

Boats are a hobby not a business unless, of course, you are using a boat for a commercial activity.

TRUE GRIT

[joe_db]

Can we clear something up?
You HAVE an outboard or are needing to buy one?
You can get a nice used A4 for the price of a new outboard, never mind fixing yours.